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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8364445" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yeah, at this point I'm not interested in talking about things in this skewed "at your level" way. I deal in FICTION. I'm a GM so that I can run a game in which fiction happens, and what happens in that fiction is what matters at my table. So I actually, despite this discussion so far, don't give two figs for this entire line of argument! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />In 4e: I'm a level 1 fighter, I get to climb some difficult scree and a couple outcrops to reach the Altar of Forgiveness in order to help the Priest of Lir properly put the evil undead inhabiting the town graveyard to rest. Its part of an SC, and the DCs for these "somewhat hazardous to ordinary people" actions are level 1 DCs. Maybe if the challenge is really tough they could even be level 5 DCs, at most (Level + 4 encounter). This is all spelled out lock, stock, and barrel in the PHB/DMG (admitting that WotC fiddled with some of the numbers a few times over the course of 6 years).In 5e: The scenario is the same. In this case though there's no SC structure to handle the 'valence' of the checks, so we don't really know what it takes to succeed. The DC architecture is confusing. Are these easy tasks? What is the scale, something is easy if low level guys are expected to do it? Or is it medium/hard, and if so how are they going to all pass the DCs? Either way, the 1st level PCs accomplish a task which is fictionally pretty straightforward, and which might be within reach of an industrious 'normal person', or at least elements of it might be.In 4e: I'm a level 15 fighter. The task is to sneak into Mag Tureah, rescue the Gnome King from the dungeon and get out with the information about the Fomorian spy before the Fomorians can mount a devastating sneak attack on Mithrendain. Again, the DCs will be level 15, maybe up to level 20 perhaps, and a mix of easy, medium, and a few hard checks. I will probably be poorly equipped to pass a few of them (I tanked INT, so I have only a +6 on some of those checks, though on my good checks I'm up around +15, maybe a bit higher). The tasks involved will be things like getting through enchanted iron doors, sneaking past high level sentries, bribing a cyclopes, and removing a nasty curse.In 5e: I'm a level 10 fighter in this system (bit different leveling structure). Lets just assume the same basic adventure. Again, I don't really have an SC framework. It is clear that the tasks at hand are not easy or really likely even medium in nature. The GM will have to decide based on what ends up generating a reasonable DC against the character's average check bonuses. I'm guessing those will be in the DC15 to DC20 range, based on personal experience with 5e. Again, the valence of any given check is unknown, if the GM simply wants to allow for a lot of 'failure, close call, go on' the DCs could be higher, or he could set them lower, or he could allow only 1 or 2 checks and then total success, or require dozens. It is all clear as mud, basically.Either way, the task is pretty out there, sneaking into the infamous dungeons of the Mad King of the Fomorians with the fate of an entire ancient fey kingdom on the line. Clearly there's no climbing piles of loose rock here, or if there were, it wouldn't be mentioned as a challenge, maybe at best a minor tactical aspect of a fight or something.I don't think we need detail level 30/20 but my example might be something like bagging Tiamat in her lair in a mysterious Astral Realm.</blockquote>

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