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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8364451" data-attributes="member: 16814">I do not do Kobayashi Maru scenarios in my games.&nbsp; Players always have the choice of what they try to do in my 5e games.I'm not sure what threat of the monster means to you, but to me it means the threat the monster poses.&nbsp; As there's aren't any real people in the game, and only the PCs have players attached, yes, relative to the party.Never claimed otherwise, and some constraint doesn't render the argument moot.&nbsp; It's not, &quot;if there's any constraint, there's no difference here!&quot;Then why is he choosing to intimidate this mayor?&nbsp; You're picking character traits to explain build choices (very valid) but then ignoring those for the actual example.Yes, he does.&nbsp; If he's a normie, his WIS save bonuses are +1.&nbsp; This makes it a pretty even challenge for the Knight That Never Wants To Intimidate People But Is Doing It Now For The First Time.&nbsp; The KTNWTIPBISINFTFT is an apprentice at intimidating people -- you said so yourself above!For PCs, yes, it's an option.&nbsp; The first one presented.&nbsp; And no, it's not necessary to have high stats to oppose someone, even if they have training and good stat.&nbsp; Your example isn't any opposition, though, it was that the KTNWTIPBISINFTFT had NO chance against this mayor.&nbsp; That requires high stats, and high proficiency bonuses, which then goes into the CR calculations and make the mayor not low lever anymore.So why are they threatening him?Ah, the goalpost shift again?&nbsp; How many times does this example need to be set up so that you can maintain it?&nbsp; Okay, sure, the mayor has lots of support against Knights of the Round Table -- this is starting to look like an serious problem for the kingdom when a whole organization is moving against the Knights.A similar character in 4e has about the same chance to fail an Easy task on level.&nbsp; If we assume it's a hard task, 50/50 is when a level 1 hard task appears to a level 20 PC.&nbsp; That's right, a level 20 PC against a level 1 hard task has within 5% of the same chance of success.&nbsp; So, a level 20 4e character like the knights attempting to intimidate a level 1 mayor with a room full of sycophants making it a hard task need one more than the roll they need to intimidate a level 20 creature deemed easy by the GM.&nbsp; I hadn't looked at that before, but it really puts a nice spin on this argument -- the DCs are harder for level 1 hard tasks than they are for level 20 easy ones.What wizard?&nbsp; I... what?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8364451, member: 16814"] I do not do Kobayashi Maru scenarios in my games. Players always have the choice of what they try to do in my 5e games. I'm not sure what threat of the monster means to you, but to me it means the threat the monster poses. As there's aren't any real people in the game, and only the PCs have players attached, yes, relative to the party. Never claimed otherwise, and some constraint doesn't render the argument moot. It's not, "if there's any constraint, there's no difference here!" Then why is he choosing to intimidate this mayor? You're picking character traits to explain build choices (very valid) but then ignoring those for the actual example. Yes, he does. If he's a normie, his WIS save bonuses are +1. This makes it a pretty even challenge for the Knight That Never Wants To Intimidate People But Is Doing It Now For The First Time. The KTNWTIPBISINFTFT is an apprentice at intimidating people -- you said so yourself above! For PCs, yes, it's an option. The first one presented. And no, it's not necessary to have high stats to oppose someone, even if they have training and good stat. Your example isn't any opposition, though, it was that the KTNWTIPBISINFTFT had NO chance against this mayor. That requires high stats, and high proficiency bonuses, which then goes into the CR calculations and make the mayor not low lever anymore. So why are they threatening him? Ah, the goalpost shift again? How many times does this example need to be set up so that you can maintain it? Okay, sure, the mayor has lots of support against Knights of the Round Table -- this is starting to look like an serious problem for the kingdom when a whole organization is moving against the Knights. A similar character in 4e has about the same chance to fail an Easy task on level. If we assume it's a hard task, 50/50 is when a level 1 hard task appears to a level 20 PC. That's right, a level 20 PC against a level 1 hard task has within 5% of the same chance of success. So, a level 20 4e character like the knights attempting to intimidate a level 1 mayor with a room full of sycophants making it a hard task need one more than the roll they need to intimidate a level 20 creature deemed easy by the GM. I hadn't looked at that before, but it really puts a nice spin on this argument -- the DCs are harder for level 1 hard tasks than they are for level 20 easy ones. What wizard? I... what? [/QUOTE]

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