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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8365090" data-attributes="member: 16814">Again, the &quot;saves&quot; problem exists in 4e.&nbsp; If you neglect a defense (which is arguably harder to do) and run into a creature that targets hard on that defense, then the way 4e does advancement means that you're not going to have much luck.&nbsp; I mean, a level 1 creature meant to have a very strong attack against REF will have the same chance of hitting a level 20 character that neglects REF as a level 20 creature that has a soft attack against REF.&nbsp; Of course, few creatures are built with soft attacks in 4e (low stat pairs with low bonuses), so this doesn't really get noticed.&nbsp; It's the same issue complained about in 5e, mostly, in my opinion, because it's actually visible in 5e.You say 5e is less transparent about this than 4e is?&nbsp; I'm not so sure.&nbsp; They tell you up front -- bounded accuracy and why.&nbsp; 4e didn't really explain the treadmill math, but they also didn't hide it.&nbsp; 5e at least tells you what to expect.&nbsp; The math is pretty clear, as well, if you look for it. What isn't clear in 5e is how interconnected class ability resets, rest cycles, and adventuring day XP are.&nbsp; This is absolutely buried (I don't think intentionally hidden), but that's a different thread.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8365090, member: 16814"] Again, the "saves" problem exists in 4e. If you neglect a defense (which is arguably harder to do) and run into a creature that targets hard on that defense, then the way 4e does advancement means that you're not going to have much luck. I mean, a level 1 creature meant to have a very strong attack against REF will have the same chance of hitting a level 20 character that neglects REF as a level 20 creature that has a soft attack against REF. Of course, few creatures are built with soft attacks in 4e (low stat pairs with low bonuses), so this doesn't really get noticed. It's the same issue complained about in 5e, mostly, in my opinion, because it's actually visible in 5e. You say 5e is less transparent about this than 4e is? I'm not so sure. They tell you up front -- bounded accuracy and why. 4e didn't really explain the treadmill math, but they also didn't hide it. 5e at least tells you what to expect. The math is pretty clear, as well, if you look for it. What isn't clear in 5e is how interconnected class ability resets, rest cycles, and adventuring day XP are. This is absolutely buried (I don't think intentionally hidden), but that's a different thread. [/QUOTE]

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