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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8366824" data-attributes="member: 87792">Nope. In 4e neglected skills that you'd be expected to do something with get better with the level. Everyone gets better as they level up. The Wis 8 wizard may never be good at perception but they will at least learn what to look out for over time, unlike his Mr. Magoo counterpart in 5e. The fighter at least learns something about arcana from all the droning the wizard does and all the spellcasters they face. The thief gets tougher over time.Now in 5e it's possible to fake this sort of progression by lowering the DCs - but to do this you need to ignore such things as the trap rules and the monster rules. Indeed I'd go so far as to say that the only way to do this in 5e is active houseruling.4e's only &quot;treadmill&quot; is that the reward for a job well done is a harder job.5e's &quot;breaking of the treadmill&quot; means that you are robbed of characters actually learning from each other.In short if you are playing in a white room with characters with no history at all then 4e doesn't show baseline improvement. If the characters are involved in literally any sort of multi-level adventure then they clearly and obviously show improvement and in reality it exists.Meanwhile 5e characters are inert, incurious, and only show any improvement in anything they aren't focusing on if the DM decides to ignore the actual rules and throw them a bone. And because 5e is so non-granular it's obvious when the DM is throwing you a +5.Have you even read 4e? Because you appear to have not read the skill rules.And you can make things up in 5e as well. You aren't breaking nearly as many guidelines when you do.It's hardly just athletics.I'm trying to work out whether you've literally never read or played 4e or whether you simply have a lot of misconceptions about it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8366824, member: 87792"] Nope. In 4e neglected skills that you'd be expected to do something with get better with the level. Everyone gets better as they level up. The Wis 8 wizard may never be [I]good[/I] at perception but they will at least learn what to look out for over time, unlike his Mr. Magoo counterpart in 5e. The fighter at least learns [I]something[/I] about arcana from all the droning the wizard does and all the spellcasters they face. The thief gets tougher over time. Now in 5e it's possible to fake this sort of progression by lowering the DCs - but to do this you need to ignore such things as the trap rules and the monster rules. Indeed I'd go so far as to say that the only way to do this in 5e is active houseruling. 4e's only "treadmill" is that the reward for a job well done is a harder job. 5e's "breaking of the treadmill" means that you are robbed of characters actually learning from each other. In short if you are playing in a white room with characters with no history at all then 4e doesn't show baseline improvement. If the characters are involved in literally any sort of multi-level adventure then they clearly and obviously show improvement and in reality it exists. Meanwhile 5e characters are inert, incurious, and only show any improvement in anything they aren't focusing on if the DM decides to ignore the actual rules and throw them a bone. And because 5e is so non-granular it's obvious when the DM is throwing you a +5. [I]Have you even read 4e? [/I]Because you appear to have not read the skill rules. And you can make things up in 5e as well. You aren't breaking nearly as many guidelines when you do. It's hardly just athletics. I'm trying to work out whether you've literally never read or played 4e or whether you simply have a lot of misconceptions about it. [/QUOTE]

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