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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8367443" data-attributes="member: 16814">I'd agree that it's pretty silly to consider that the same thing happens precisely again, but it seemed to me that your assumption about the 5e DC was that it would always have to be 15 if a climber's kit was used.&nbsp; This doesn't hold.&nbsp; It's a different situation, so the DC can change based on the GM's appraisal of how well the approach works with the fiction.&nbsp; Players should not be upset if a different DC obtains in a different situation.&nbsp; I think your point is that the DC in 5e will be considering the fictional situation and the action declared to determine it, whereas in 4e, for your approach, the fiction is mostly orthogonal.I agree with this, with the possible expectation that a 4e player couldn't be upset that a GM has picked a +4 level hard DC for something the player felt was presented as an easier task.&nbsp; This is an edge case, though, an I think it goes to say that the fiction presented is, at least, a rough constraint on the selection space for DCs even more so that just tier.&nbsp; Fiction isn't entirely orthogonal to DC, just mostly.I agree again.This statement seems very odd to me, in that AD&amp;D didn't have a mechanic similar to DCs, except the &quot;roll under stat.&quot;&nbsp; I don't think 5e has moved towards this, which, using your definition of sub/objective, appears to be a subjective system -- it's roll under stat no matter what's involved.&nbsp; 5e is most certainly not this.&nbsp; 5e isn't 3e, either.&nbsp; It's more an outgrowth of AD&amp;D &quot;GM decides&quot; with a bit more of a framework a la 3-4e.&nbsp; More 4e in framework than 3e.&nbsp; What 4e might look like if DC was more tightly coupled to the fictional situation -- if 4e was more objective.&nbsp; But not quite.Yes, this is what I understood, apologies for my rough handling.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8367443, member: 16814"] I'd agree that it's pretty silly to consider that the same thing happens precisely again, but it seemed to me that your assumption about the 5e DC was that it would always have to be 15 if a climber's kit was used. This doesn't hold. It's a different situation, so the DC can change based on the GM's appraisal of how well the approach works with the fiction. Players should not be upset if a different DC obtains in a different situation. I think your point is that the DC in 5e will be considering the fictional situation and the action declared to determine it, whereas in 4e, for your approach, the fiction is mostly orthogonal. I agree with this, with the possible expectation that a 4e player couldn't be upset that a GM has picked a +4 level hard DC for something the player felt was presented as an easier task. This is an edge case, though, an I think it goes to say that the fiction presented is, at least, a rough constraint on the selection space for DCs even more so that just tier. Fiction isn't entirely orthogonal to DC, just mostly. I agree again.[I][/I] This statement seems very odd to me, in that AD&D didn't have a mechanic similar to DCs, except the "roll under stat." I don't think 5e has moved towards this, which, using your definition of sub/objective, appears to be a subjective system -- it's roll under stat no matter what's involved. 5e is most certainly not this. 5e isn't 3e, either. It's more an outgrowth of AD&D "GM decides" with a bit more of a framework a la 3-4e. More 4e in framework than 3e. What 4e might look like if DC was more tightly coupled to the fictional situation -- if 4e was more objective. But not quite. Yes, this is what I understood, apologies for my rough handling. [/QUOTE]

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