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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8367966" data-attributes="member: 82106">I don't think the Skill Challenge mechanics 'told' me anything. I invented a low epic tier conception of the Infinite Spire in my mind, based on decades ago reading of the 1e MotP and just general ideas of what would be cool and thematic for a Demigod, an Archmage, a Deadly Trickster, and an Eternal Seeker, all newly minted, to do. Given the casting of the task in terms of 'dangerous climbing' clearly Epic PCs are not going to be particularly challenged by mere crumbly rock and overhanging ledges (they can probably fly and teleport after all, and may well possess magic items or abilities that let them climb with perfect skill). So, I thought, "what makes the Infinite Spire Epic?" Well, surely its an 'Epic Region', the conditions are harsh in terms of the survival of mere mortals. This also leads to the idea that whatever does live there, it must also be pretty epic in order to survive. Thus I imagine some sort of 'weather' or similar environmental aspect. That seems fairly thematic, though probably not excessively scary to 21st Level PCs. Still, it can serve as a basis, everything else gets a bit harder when the wind is howling around you, magical lightning is in the air, etc. Anyway, you get the idea. I am only thinking of 'level' in terms of thematics. The DCs are along for the ride. Look, the exact numbers are clearly not the issue here. I suppose I could be unique amongst all GMs on the planet in having a conception of thematic appropriateness. Somehow, reading 4e, I am not impressed by that possibility since it reeks of such! Absolutely reeks! You pick elements for your Epic PCs BECAUSE THOSE ELEMENTS ARE EPIC. Even if you say to yourself "I want a level 21 dragon" the things that will show up in MM<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f44e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="(n)" title="Thumbs down    (n)"  data-smilie="23"data-shortname="(n)" /> in response to that search will have been devised by the authors to adhere to the thematics of those levels! So its ENTIRELY thematics, all the way down! Else why would the game not simply have orcs and goblins from levels 1 to 30? Surely you can see this, right?When [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] talks about things having 'subjective DCs' I think there are 2 things he's pointing out. One is that the thematic 'regimes' of 4e, its distinct themes, are certainly a lot more course-grained than 30 different graded themes. That is, any given theme occurs across a range of levels, and blends with others. So yes, you could set the DCs of a given area, the Infinite Spire as you posit, within a range, level 21 seems cool, level 24 wouldn't exactly cause anyone to spit milk either. Secondly I think he's referring to the EASY/MEDIUM/HARD determination process, which 4e actually says very little overall about.Frankly, IMHO, Some of the tiers have more different themes than others. Surely levels 1-3 feel distinct from about 4-8, which is again feeling different from 9-11, then maybe 12-16, and you have 17-21 (epic transition), and then 22-28 perhaps is kind of the meat of epic, and then you have 'capstone', levels 29-30 that finish out the game. Obviously this won't exactly be reflected in all games, but IMHO epic is 'shorter' than paragon, which is 'shorter' than heroic. In fact HoML reflects this, allocating its levels disproportionately to the lower tiers. Maybe that's a mistake, come to think about it, lol. Maybe I should do the opposite! Have to think about that...Anyway, FOR ME, its all about thematics. Level itself is merely a tool. DCs associate to themes, only in that they align the mechanics to them, such that the distinct needs of each theme are supported by the mechanics. So, yes, the DCs, objectively, are arbitrary, but the same thematic material will get the same DC EVERY SINGLE TIME, because that is what binds it to the game system (and granting a small amount of wiggle room of plus our minus a couple points here or there, which is not exactly going to cause anyone a lot of head scratching IME).</blockquote>

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