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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1700233" data-attributes="member: 3146">You know, I really want to jump into this thread and yell "I've seen darned effective monks" but I keep hearing a lot of nonsense from the monk defenders. So, first things first.Nonsense. Human Wiz 1: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10. AC: 12 without mage armor. With Shield or a scroll of mage armor or a masterwork buckler he puts away with a move action when casting spells, that's AC 13-15. HP: 6-9 (9 w/Toad familiar; 12 with toughness as a feat but that's overkill).Or Halfling Wiz 1: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 9, Cha 8AC: 13 base, 17 with mage armor or shield.A typical low-level wizard should be assumed to have an AC of at least twelve. Sometimes, you'll luck out and find an AC 8 wizard. More often, it'll be 12-17.There's a big difference between dropping on AVERAGE DAMAGE from one hit and dropping from a lucky hit. Let's say the first level fighter has a 14 strength and a bastard sword. That's an average of 7.5 damage. Bye bye Mr. 10-con monk.The typical fighter has 12+ hit points (11 if an elf). It takes max damage to drop him. The monk drops 50% of the time. Big difference.Well, if it's 3.5, the enemy wizard probably has Ray of Enfeeblement and Color Spray or Cause Fear prepped. Maybe Enlarge Person if he's willing to risk full round actions. On the other hand, said first level mage doesn't need to worry about the monk you described too much. His odds of holding you off with his quarterstaff are fairly good.Hmm. Against AC 12 wizard, that's a 50% chance of hitting once, a 25% chance of hitting twice, and a 25% chance of stunning him (50% chance to hit and 50% chance to stun if you hit). With 1d6+1 damage per hit, that's about a 16% chance of doing enough damage to stagger the wizard. Not especially good odds.....True words about the monk's items. However, unless the campaign is unusually generous with magic items, a 10th level monk who started with a 13 strength and boosted wisdom won't be doing even 2d6+5 points of damage. It'll be more like 2d6+3 at best. That's an average of 10 points.3d6+6=average 16.5. If that's comparable to the fighter in terms of damage, it's obviously a one-handed fighter and he's not power attacking. 16 starting strength +2 stat boosts from level, + gauntlets of ogre power+weapon specialization+a +2 flaming bastard sword=1d10+9+1d6 (avg 18 points)For a two-handed weapon wielder power attacking for two, that's 2d6+16+1d6 (avg 26.5 points).In my observation, effective monks generally get their damage from the quantity rather than the quality of their attacks.I'm not sure I understand what you're driving at. The most effective monk's I've observed use Roundabout kick (Complete Warrior) and Expert Tactician (Song and Silence) rather than Spring Attack. Tumble is good enough for them.I was under the impression that orc barbarians were suitable opponents for foes of any level. It's just a matter of what level the orc barbarians are. I tend to expect first and second level orc barbarians at first level.True. You can't take Mobility without Dodge either.Yes it is.Str 16 (10 points)Dex 14 (6 points)Con 16 (10 points)Int 8 (0 points)Wis 10 (2 points)Cha 8 (0 points)A realistic barbarian focussed on mobility and movement could afford to buy a chain shirt and a heavy wooden shield with a longsword at first level. That's AC 18 (+4 chain shirt, +2 dex, +2 shield). If he takes Dodge and Mobility, that's AC 19, 23 vs. AoOs. However, since he can't take spring attack till 6th level without multiclassing, he'll probably go for weapon focus and dodge. AC 19, Atk +5 (1d8+3).Really, I don't think your monk design measures up at any level. Your strength and con are too low to be viable in anything but the dancing butterfly spring attack role. And there are better ways to do that than Monk (most of them involve multiclass fighter/barbarians (possibly with rogue levels), power attack,and two handed weapons).</blockquote>

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