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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Question" data-source="post: 3047341" data-attributes="member: 40104">5th level vampire fighter ECL 13 has what, 5d12 hp? 5d12! A 11th level mage casting a 6th level spell 1 hit "kills" him.I thought LA/CR differences was because some abilities for monsters are much more useful for a PC than a monster?It seems like this is completely the other way round. Vampires should get a higher CR than LA because nearly all of their special abilities are more suited for use as NPC adversaries than as PCs.The whole toting a coffin thing around so it cant be killed permanently.........how difficult it is for a NPC? Hell a NPC wont even move the coffin around, it will be in the vampire's lair. A PC has to find ways to do so and keep it hidden. Chalk the major "cant be killed except for direct sunlight, water or decapitation" ability up in favor of the NPC.Blood drain : A vampire PC has zero ability to do a successful grapple thanks to +8 LA, and as a general rule ability drain/damage against PCs is stronger than vice versa(since the PCs has to seek restoration, while the main goal of combat is to KILL the NPC). Another in favor of the NPC.Children of the night : Arriving in 2d6 rounds means you pretty much have to be summon it well before hand, and they arent very threatening at these levels. On the other hand a CR 8 vampires could use them to wreck havoc on the PCs. Chalk another up in favor of the NPC.Dominate : Somewhat useful in combat......you can use it to dominate fighters into attacking their comrades for example, but the effect vs NPCs is far less when comparing NPCs using it on the PC's fighter. On the other hand it has potential for abuse......a vampire PC can dominate shopkeepers and the like into giving them free stuff, but a DM can easily prevent this. I think its a draw.Createspawn : Yea, a very big no for a PC, you do NOT want an army of vampires or spawn following you around, it just totally gets in your way. Not only that but you have no capability to kill someone to create spawn in the first place, unless you are attacking commoners or such. On the other hand for a NPC this is hugely useful in order to throw an army of vampire spawn at the PCs.Energy drain : A PC using this instantly dies if he tries to hit someone with a slam attack(which he cant, as his attack bonus is absymal), and energy draining PCs is far more effective than PCs energy draining NPCs. In favor for NPC.Alternate form : Useful mainly for NPC disguising themselves. In favor of NPC.DR10/silver and magic : More or less equal.Fast healing : A PC vampire will never have the chance to have his fast healing kick in, because one hit and BAM coffin time. Hugely in favor for NPCs.Gaseous form : Yea this is basically for vampire NPCs to scout/enter places un-observed, a PC using this will be too weak to do anyhting even if they can sneak into a monster's lair. In favor of NPC.Spiderclimb : In favor of NPC, im having a hard time thinking how this is useful to most PCs. Turn resistance : In favor of NPC, but since turning mechanics generally suck, this isnt a big deal.Even the feats are vastly in favor of the NPC.Inability to cross running water, inability to enter private places unless invited in by the owner......yea im thinking huge RP/mechanic disability for PCs. Theres also the complete inability to do anything for about half the day. If ever there was a template that deserved a higher CR than LA, THIS is it.</blockquote>

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