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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thunderfoot" data-source="post: 4244627" data-attributes="member: 34175">OK jd - here is your first definitive argument against you.Using your initial quote/rant you stated that previous edition were MORE realistic than 4E.  In this regard I can pull out hundreds of small details that can prove this statement.  In fact I could easily state that every edition was more historically grounded than the one that followed.  However, NONE of the editions are strictly historically accurate; that's why its called FANTASY role playing.Now don't get me wrong, here, I'm not trying to be argumentative or even over the top (because reading this back it sure does look that way.)  And I can say for certain that several trolls out there are just looking to get someone riled-up (you evidentially <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> ).  However my 1AD&D books use historical references and names wherever possible, the armament is pulled directly from several periods of European history, from pre-historic (the club) to the Renaissance (the heavy crossbow(or arbalest)).  Though the idea of a Thieves' guild is more Victorian, it still works on many levels.  Gnomes have no mention of 'contraptions' there are no rules for steam-punk, none of the artwork involved was too far off period (with respect to clothing and such) and the general feel of the game could be altered to a decently historic game if you drop the magic and fantasy elements (it was, after all, derived as a set of miniature battles rules for the medieval period.2EAD&D started to pull away from this aspect, especially after the release of Dragonlance and those reprehensible tinker gnomes.  Suddenly the steam-punk influence had started to creep in, though if you read the blue DM splatbooks (specifically the Arms & Equipment Guide and the Castle Handbook) the historically details were still available.  Also the green campaign books offered a way the game could be altered to where it was strictly historically based or where you could change the past a bit and make it a historically fantasy based campaign (such as the barbarian hordes that invaded Rome were actually marauding orcs or goblinoids and such.)By 3.0 it was obvious that historical reference was getting in the way of a good story.  Video game influence began to more strongly assert itself and when Lidda the halfling rogue looks like she pilfers in emo bondage gear, it is obvious that things are starting to depart from their roots.  Gnome became the steampunk race of the hour and as a whole the fantasy aspects of the game were more prevalent than historic.  Racial double weapons come screaming to mind and the wildly varying armor influences just kind of twist the history a little more than I would like.  (And don't get me started on the equipment lists...) Though I am sure that it is possible, I wouldn't want to try to run a 3.X game that tried to stick to0 close to the history books; the amount of work involved to undo the artistic flavor injected into the PHB alone would take months of serious work to fix.4E is just the natural extension of this trend.  Having played the demos and seen the sneak peeks, I think I can safely say that I would find another system if I were to run a historically centered game.  That doesn't mean however that the system is bad or broken, just more focused on its intended purpose.  Hopefully this answers your questions (or poses some more).  If not, please feel free to point out where you disagree (or maybe even be enlightened.)   I would love to either answer your further questions or continue the debate.  But, overall, this is much ado about nothing, because honestly if anyone were to claim TOTAL historical accuracy, well that's just plain silly.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /></blockquote>

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