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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khur" data-source="post: 1293665" data-attributes="member: 5583">While your rule here is better than the "official one", and I appreciate it very much that you shared it with us, I have to agree with d4 here. This rule makes the knockout easier, but you still have to wail on someone for "real" damage for a while if they have significant hit points. Subdual damage may have been wacky, but it feels more realistic than nonlethal damage.Not to hijack this thread, but another problem is that the rule In Modern and this one fail to take into account more serious knockouts. That is, if a person takes more or less damage, the Fortitude save should be harder or easier by the same or a related amount. Further, the amount of time someone spends unconscious should be relative to the amount of damage taken and/or the amount by which the saving throw was failed. Finally, with nonlethal damage the way it is, a character goes from "unconscious" to "just fine" in those 1d4+1 rounds. Anyone who has ever been knocked silly by trauma knows this isn't the case. Further, it fails to allow for the cinematic knocking out of mooks and thugs. That is, it's very hard to take "ordinaries" out of the scenario permanently (like it's done in some movies) without killing them.Now, if one said that a victim of a critical hit with a nonlethal attack had to make a saving throw (Fort DC 15) or fall unconscious, it would be even better. This solution still leaves the problem of how to deal with foes that are attacked unawares.Do share, please. Obviously I'm not as skilled at min-maxing as you or those in your group, or perhaps there's been a nmisunderstanding. I'd like to see examples of this that doesn't take a high-level character to pull off. Since you say there are a ton of viable possibilities, maybe you can share more than one model. Preferably, you can give instances of how to do this without equipment, since we're really talking about fisticuffs. If you do bother to give examples, could I ask you to use average damage delivered as I did in my example, not maximum. Just to help you out, feats that allow the brawling damage to be treated as critical (Knockout Punch/Improved Knockout Punch) don't really apply, because they're only applicable when an opponent is flat-footed. When we're talking about nonlethal damage in standup fights, this "luck of the draw" type of ability doesn't really help. Power attack can even the odds well, especially considering the +2 competence bonus to unarmed attacks from the Brawl feat tree. Once again, Power Attack is a special circumstance that cannot be relied upon, but it is more valid.Some calculations I did go as follows: Strong Hero 5 (BAB +5), Athlete SO, Str 18, Brawl bonus feat, Other feats (and level at which they are gained): Combat Martial Arts (1), Power Attack (1), Streetfighting (2), Improved Brawl (3), Knockout Punch (4). Talents (level): Melee Smash (1), Improved Melee Smash (3), Advanced Melee Smash (5). This character does 1d8 + 1d4 + 4 Str + 3 (talents) +2 (assumed Power Attack) with a nonlethal attack, or an average of 15. This is formidable, no doubt, and my original examples did not assume Melee Smash talent or the use of Power Attack. One must admit, however, that this monster brawler is too focused for a low-level character. He's all fists and nothing else, and this lack of versatility is a problem in any campaign besides one based on Road House. This is true even if one considers that our friend can do considerable "real damage" with those burly fists--and average of 6 or so, without Power Attack. When one considers the ramifications of nonlethal damage, it gets even worse. Thus, my whole point has been that it's not worth it to invest a litany of feats in nonlethal damage, because the rules make it easier and more rewarding for a character to just do "real" damage. Combat Martial Arts proves this, because it increases your unarmed damage, makes it so you can do real damage, and allows you to be treated as armed when unarmed. Taking Brawl instead of that is just plain foolish form a power standpoint. This is especially true when one considers the amount of time that a person is taken out of combat by a knockout blow—and average of 18 seconds. That is unless you're going to coup de grace those you knock out, but why not use real damage then as well? Can you refute these points? Please help me out. I'd enjoy seeing how I'm wrong here, since it will make me a better player and GM. I appreciate any time you take to educate me.Now, if Modern included an option for a nonlethal blow that puts someone out for longer, that would be really cool. Is it there and I just missed it in my poor reading of the rules? And, if we used Biohazard's house rule with the Mr. Knuckles above, he'd be really scary. No?I will say that this discussion has warmed me a bit to nonlethal damage, but I still think it's a bit goofy.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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