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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1293688" data-attributes="member: 5171">Hey Khur,First off, apologies for being snarky.  Wrote far too late at night.Second off, you wrote:"A character that has all of brawling feats Modern offers, and a 20 Strength, can do a maximum (emphasis Tacky's) of 13 points of damage without a critical strike."Since I didn't see the word "average" in there anywhere, and I did see the word "maximum" in there, I did not assume that you were referring to average damage, but rather to, well, maximum damage.My build would be pretty similar to yours.  Brawl and streetfighting, with the addition of the melee smash tree and power attack -- power attack in particular is a feat that D&D veterans tend to sneer at, since it really makes secondary attacks next to useless, but since nonlethal damage is all about getting in one good hit rather than many little ones, it's an excellent feat to take.  As for it not being "relied upon", I'm not sure what you mean.  If I'm a Strong4 hero, max'd out in this way, and the GM is throwing lots of things at me that I can't reliably hit, then the problem is not with my feat selection.  The problem is that the GM is throwing stuff at the party that is far too powerful.  A Strong hero with combat feats is the epitome of hitting -- he should be able to consistently hit while power-attacking for a couple of points,So chalk my disagreement up to one-part misunderstanding -- I didn't get that you were referring to average damage, since you specifically said "a maximum" -- and one-part glass-half-full mentality.  If I can break the MDT of the average opponent about half the time, then that means that I'm either knocking them out with a single shot OR making them lose their next turn due to being Dazed on a successful save.  For a more in-depth look, I'd suggest checking some of the older threads, usually entitled "Nonlethal Damage Issues" or something like that.  I build people that look basically the same as yours, and then many of us go back and forth about whether you should have to dump feats into something to be good at it (my opinion: Yes, if you want to be markedly better than other people of your level), and eventually we get into long discussions about what nonlethal damage means.But basically, as I said, my build is close to yours.  If I'm fourth level, I can force a save on an average (ordinary) guy about half the time I hit (and on heroic characters only slightly less often), which means that they're losing AT LEAST the next turn.  If I don't specialize, that doesn't happen until later levels, but it's still viable.</blockquote>

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