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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khur" data-source="post: 1297207" data-attributes="member: 5583">As the GM, of course, you're free to rule as you like, but dazed is not the same thing as stunned. (As an aside, nobody's trying to tell you how to run your own game--that's your business.) Someone hit by a flash bang is not helpless--they can still struggle. Someone who's stunned (a worse condition than dazed, because you get no Dex bonus to Defense and an additional -2) still isn't helpless enough, technically, to just be bound and gagged at the whim of an attacker. This should still require at least an initial grapple of some sort. The initial hold to start a grapple is remarkably easy, yes, (victim has no attack of opportunity,  no ability to tke the free action to oppose the grapple check, and so on). Should it be automatic? No. So, what you really have then is the ability to at least start a grapple with the dazed/stunned person easily. It's easy to subdue them while they're dazed because they can't take a free action to oppose your subsequent grapple checks, However, it still takes 2 rounds to pin someone (round 1 touch attack and establish hold, round 2 pin, and etc.) Even a pin only means the victim is at a further -4 to Defense (not helpless).Now, if the opponent were dazed for 3 rounds by a flash-bang, I've established it'd take 2 to subdue him with easy grapple checks. Record-holding rodeo jocks can tie a cow (a creature with no fine manipulators, and weak on its back) in about 4 seconds. Thus, in a really cinematic campaign a hero might be able to subdue and tie a dazed/stunned opponent in about 3 rounds. Hard-lining the rules, though, he should have to have help--maintaining the pin, while someone else ties the victim. However, neither scenario should garner the attacker(s) +10 bonus to tie the victim listed in Escape Artist.As a player, I have to tell you that even the above scenario (the 3-round hogtie on my dazed character) would make me feel like a victim of GM fiat, if one person accomplished it. Railroaded. These loopholes in the rules would allow a couple of one-armed midgets to hogtie a water buffalo. Still, following them thusly is fairer than just being able to bind and gag a dazed (or stunned) character automatically. As for nonlethal damage, I concede that 11 points of damage is enough to force a save on an average person, which does make the damage "enough" perhaps. The other things you bring up are interesting, but have nothing to do with the original argument you made, really.  My 5th-level Strong hero delineated earlier can do "enough" nonlethal damage to force a save on an elephant too. This is wonderfully cinematic in the concept, but the elephant's +12 Fortitude (statistics from the Monster Manual) pretty much precludes an actual knockout, due to the static Fort save DC of 15 (changeless, no matter how much nonlethal damage is done). In the occasions the elephant did roll a 1 or 2 on the save, it's still only out for 1d4+1 rounds (no matter how much nonlethal damage was done). Of course, any GM would concede the KO'd elephant could be bound, assuming more than one round to act on the helpless creature. The elephant's 30 Str would make its escape from average rope bonds fairly easy, though.Thanks for the lively discussion. These are just my opinions, whether supported by the rules or not. Once again, it's your game. This is all academic if everyone accepts your ruling and is still having fun. It's fun to talk about this stuff, to me, because it never fails to make the rules clearer in my mind, and therefore easier to use in play.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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