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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khur" data-source="post: 1310456" data-attributes="member: 5583">I know where zip ties are in the book. Like I said, I had considered it. This still doesn't justify an "instant cuffing" on a dazed character. That's what the original discussion was about. Zip ties do little to change that except making it easier  and reasonable to subdue a dazed character in a few rounds. Now a stun gun ... a great tool for the problem of nonlethal subdual...except against an elephant. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> If a lot of players complain about the same thing, then it's at least possible that the designers did goof. As for the perception, you didn't understand me. The fact of the matter is, that whether something perceives something as hokey, stupid, acceptable, or spot on is always a personal judgment. That doesn't mean that a person is wrong just because it has to do with his or her feelings. It can mean that the feeling really has to do with some other problem a person has, if the person can't back up a feeling with reasonable and logical discourse. It's not about right and wrong--few arguments are that black and white. Most are semantic ... exactly like this portion of this one. I never said you need real-world experience to support anything. You said that above, but I didn't. I did suggest that if you have such information it would be edifying that you share it. That's why I thanked d4 for his input. One can say whatever one likes, but someone who has real-world experience has a more relevant argument when it comes to how acceptable a particular rule is for recreating a "realistic" simulation, simply because he or she knows what it's like in the real world. Everyone who doesn't have such information, or some other relevant research into the subject, is just speculating as I said before. This is merely a fact, not a personal jibe at anyone.My experience is limited to weapons I've fired (revolvers, 9mm and .45 cal auto pistols, rifles, shotguns, and a musket). I did talk to military personnel, and another person who also talked to military personnel, about the rules before forming an opinion. They disagreed with the rules in d20 Modern. If you have more information, then your opinion is better informed then mine, if you have less information, then your opinion is less informed.Notice, I did not say that anyone's opinion invalid, whether it's speculation, less informed, or more informed. One has every right to believe whatever one chooses. One has every right to play the game as one sees fit. The only way you can tell your choices on running a game are poor ones is if the persons playing are not having fun. I haven't said anything that disputes these points, in fact just the opposite.Speaking of military personnel, and informed opinions, d4 did cover the ground very well. It's great to hear a military person speak on the subject. d4's statement doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you have any experience or relevant information to add. If you do, I'd appreciate reading it. If you don't have time or the inclination, that's fine. Even a one-line post stating your military rank (present or past) would be enough for me to count your assessment as more informed than mine (but not necessarily those of other military personnel).I'm here to educate myself on how others see the rules and why they feel that way. The why is more important to me, and if someone doesn't bother to express why, I'll ask. Opinion with relevant backup information is simply more valuable than mere belief statements with no accompanying reasoning. I'll also express my strong opinions (and the why of them) until someone shows me a better way. I'm not here to influence anyone's opinion but my own. If I do influence someone, hopefully that influence sways playing the game toward a higher "fun quotient".The rules in d20 Modern are fine. They work. That doesn't mean they're suitable for the type of game I want to run. That also doesn't mean they were the best possible solution to the problem. (Nor does it mean they're the worst.)I never attacked you, subtly or otherwise. If I meant to attack you, you wouldn't have to label it subtle. I just wanted any relevant information you had so I could personally form a more educated opinion on the subject we are discussing. I never said that if you didn't provide that information you have no right to an opinion. You're the one who suggested my words meant that. I did say that without backup reasoning, your point of view is speculation. If that fact is insulting, I apologize. My being sorry for hurting your feelings doesn't make that fact less true, however.</blockquote>

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