Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How is the Cleric in Actual Play?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7645749" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Technically it could have been, but that was working away from the simplicity goal.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Except 3e didn't rank spells the same way it does now. The same spell would have different spell levels to adjust for when a class was expected to gain it. That caused higher level spells to be classified as lower level spells for bards so they did get 8th level spells for other classes at similar class levels. That was, of course, further complicated by the DC calculation so the same spell would have a lower save DC for the bard. In essence they got the same spell roughly the same time and the mechanics made it easier to save against anyway.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Spell song DC's were still high instead of the spells, however. Fascinate DC was the perform check (which gets ridiculously high) and other spell songs like suggestion or mass suggestion were based on class level instead of spell level for higher base DC's than 9th's level spells at 20th level.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">So while spells themselves had a lower DC, the songs had better DC's to replace those of higher level spells. 29 spells of 1st thru 6th level vs 24 spells (30 with specialization) of 1st thru 6th level for a wizard is very similar. The difference was 20 high DC spell songs vs 12 (15 with specialization) higher level spells. Combined it was 49 spells/songs vs 36 (45 specialized) spells on a wizard. The bard increased versatility via skills and the wizard had a broader spell versatility plus metamagic feats to improve spells. That's very similar to 5e where they have the same spell progression but the versatility in bards comes from skills and much less inspiration but the wizard adds a spell recovery option and subclasses improve spellcasting instead of metamagic feats.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">We've had those discussions and I chose to respect your right to your opinion, lol. Agreed to disagree and moved on. I don't see the issues in the games I play so I base my opinion on that.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It's only badass based on the presumption of the wizard's efficacy, but being comparable is solid anyway.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I find bard power can be lacking in direct comparison. It's more noticeable at higher levels after other spell casters get the goodies to help their spell casting that bards get to improve skills instead. Plenty of versatility, but compared to even just and extra cantrip, arcane recovery, and the difference in ritual casting mechanics it's clear wizards make for better spell casters. Let alone spell mastery, signature spells, and subclass bonuses.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Just because both classes use the same spell progression table doesn't make them equal as spell casters. It's only part of the story.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Totally all me and only me and my awesome playtest feedback, lol. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Absolutely agree, with the caveat that spells known by taking the alternate-to-a-cleric route restricts knowing other spells. I find heroism for temp hit points can be much better than using the same spell slot for healing (concentration limitation sucks though) and song of rest can add up to quite a bit, especially in wilderness adventuring.</span></span></p><p></p><p>Clerics get more spells available by a wide margin (and therefore more rituals available for use), better armor, another cantrip, and the caster focused domains apply bonus damage to cantrips bards don't get. That shows clerics are also a bit better than bards as spell casters before adding things like domain enhancements to spells.</p><p></p><p>Even sorcerers have 2 more cantrips, font of magic / sorc points, and metamagic for more potent spell casting. Warlocks have several enhancements for eldritch blast and several decent spell-like abilities at will via invocations.</p><p></p><p>The closest bards get to other full spell casters is the base druid. Same spell progression, same number of cantrips. No spell spell enhancements inherent to the class or bonus spells available like cleric domains in the base class. Druids might still edge bards out because their prep mechanic allows swapping spells out more easily, they prep 25 spells vs 22 known at cap, and eventually they all get the beast spells ability.</p><p></p><p>When it comes to full spell casters, bards are the bottom of the spell-casting list and spell secrets at higher levels tends to get a bit over-rated. What's nice about them is skills and bardic inspiration dice more than the spell casting.</p><p></p><p><strong><u><span style="font-size: 18px">Short Version</span></u></strong></p><p><strong><u><span style="font-size: 18px"></span></u></strong></p><p><strong><u><span style="font-size: 18px"></span></u></strong><span style="font-size: 12px">Not all "full" spell casters are created equally, and the comparison of bards because "full" spell casters is actually false equivalence.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">Clerics have more cantrips, better armor, many more spells prepped than bards know and therefore more rituals available, and caster oriented clerics gain damage to cantrips bards do not. Cleric domains often offer spell improvements or additional abilities.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7645749, member: 6750235"] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Technically it could have been, but that was working away from the simplicity goal.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Except 3e didn't rank spells the same way it does now. The same spell would have different spell levels to adjust for when a class was expected to gain it. That caused higher level spells to be classified as lower level spells for bards so they did get 8th level spells for other classes at similar class levels. That was, of course, further complicated by the DC calculation so the same spell would have a lower save DC for the bard. In essence they got the same spell roughly the same time and the mechanics made it easier to save against anyway. Spell song DC's were still high instead of the spells, however. Fascinate DC was the perform check (which gets ridiculously high) and other spell songs like suggestion or mass suggestion were based on class level instead of spell level for higher base DC's than 9th's level spells at 20th level. So while spells themselves had a lower DC, the songs had better DC's to replace those of higher level spells. 29 spells of 1st thru 6th level vs 24 spells (30 with specialization) of 1st thru 6th level for a wizard is very similar. The difference was 20 high DC spell songs vs 12 (15 with specialization) higher level spells. Combined it was 49 spells/songs vs 36 (45 specialized) spells on a wizard. The bard increased versatility via skills and the wizard had a broader spell versatility plus metamagic feats to improve spells. That's very similar to 5e where they have the same spell progression but the versatility in bards comes from skills and much less inspiration but the wizard adds a spell recovery option and subclasses improve spellcasting instead of metamagic feats.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] We've had those discussions and I chose to respect your right to your opinion, lol. Agreed to disagree and moved on. I don't see the issues in the games I play so I base my opinion on that. [/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] It's only badass based on the presumption of the wizard's efficacy, but being comparable is solid anyway. I find bard power can be lacking in direct comparison. It's more noticeable at higher levels after other spell casters get the goodies to help their spell casting that bards get to improve skills instead. Plenty of versatility, but compared to even just and extra cantrip, arcane recovery, and the difference in ritual casting mechanics it's clear wizards make for better spell casters. Let alone spell mastery, signature spells, and subclass bonuses. Just because both classes use the same spell progression table doesn't make them equal as spell casters. It's only part of the story. [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Totally all me and only me and my awesome playtest feedback, lol. :-P[/FONT][/COLOR] [/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Absolutely agree, with the caveat that spells known by taking the alternate-to-a-cleric route restricts knowing other spells. I find heroism for temp hit points can be much better than using the same spell slot for healing (concentration limitation sucks though) and song of rest can add up to quite a bit, especially in wilderness adventuring.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] Clerics get more spells available by a wide margin (and therefore more rituals available for use), better armor, another cantrip, and the caster focused domains apply bonus damage to cantrips bards don't get. That shows clerics are also a bit better than bards as spell casters before adding things like domain enhancements to spells. Even sorcerers have 2 more cantrips, font of magic / sorc points, and metamagic for more potent spell casting. Warlocks have several enhancements for eldritch blast and several decent spell-like abilities at will via invocations. The closest bards get to other full spell casters is the base druid. Same spell progression, same number of cantrips. No spell spell enhancements inherent to the class or bonus spells available like cleric domains in the base class. Druids might still edge bards out because their prep mechanic allows swapping spells out more easily, they prep 25 spells vs 22 known at cap, and eventually they all get the beast spells ability. When it comes to full spell casters, bards are the bottom of the spell-casting list and spell secrets at higher levels tends to get a bit over-rated. What's nice about them is skills and bardic inspiration dice more than the spell casting. [B][U][SIZE=5]Short Version [/SIZE][/U][/B][SIZE=3]Not all "full" spell casters are created equally, and the comparison of bards because "full" spell casters is actually false equivalence. Clerics have more cantrips, better armor, many more spells prepped than bards know and therefore more rituals available, and caster oriented clerics gain damage to cantrips bards do not. Cleric domains often offer spell improvements or additional abilities.[/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
How is the Cleric in Actual Play?
Top