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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8641910" data-attributes="member: 87792">The thing here is I don't believe that many people sit down and say "This is who I am and this is how I will change in the future" and then have things happen that way. I believe they do make choices - but that our skills and growth aren't on rails.As mentioned I have started all my last three campaigns not at level one but at level zero. The PCs literally did not have a class until part way through the first session when they made certain big choices - and those choices had ongoing consequences, one of which was their class. And the consequences continued to play out. I want apprentice levels so much I house-ruled a level zero in all my last three campaigns. And I would rather have this or some level zero like it as part of the DMG because it is meaningful and useful.You say "some folks want to get straight to the 'things to play through as a result'". And I accept this. I have not said that it is wrong to start campaigns at level 3. What I have said is that there is a lot of meaningful play in starting before level 3 as it currently exists and that to me this is one of the best parts of the core game especially when advancement is as on rails as it is in 5e.I am not forcing them to dance to their tune. Starting at level 3 is fine and I don't force other groups to start at level 1. You on the other hand are advocating on burning what I find the most useful, interesting, and meaningful part of 5e out of the game - and at the same time causing significant harm to one of 5e's other major strengths. By destroying the gap between choosing your class and choosing your subclass you are ensuring that instead of being given a choice of 13 classes and then after that about ten subclasses per class, normally two levels later, you are advocating making new players choose out of all over 100 subclasses at the same time which makes it massively harder for newbies. And also because there are 100 odd choices rather than a dozen or so the "level zero - find/choose your class" also becomes functionally impossible.If you find levels 1 and 2 to be boring then start at level 3. There is meaningful play in the first couple of levels both for new players and new characters, and meaningful play in reaching level 3. And there is a huge benefit for newbies in separating the choice - and not having the complexity of having the choice of class and subclass made together. There is a way within the rules you can play the way you advocate and I can play the way I do (especially if they put level 0 rules in there). We literally right now have level 1 and 2 as the apprentice levels.I am not trying to force you to dance to my tune. You are on the other hand trying to relegate the echos of my tune to house rules while making it almost impossible to reach the most intense part of my tune. Please stop.</blockquote>

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