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<blockquote data-quote="GreyICE" data-source="post: 6030540" data-attributes="member: 6684526">If your monk is the most effective member of the party, the party has really done something terribly wrong.&nbsp; I'm not talking about optimization.&nbsp; I'm not talking about using the fixed melee classes like Warblades and Swordsages.&nbsp; I'm talking that a barbarian can pick up a big 2 handed weapon and just go to town. - 3/4 BAB is not worth getting an extra attack.&nbsp; The fighter will have the same number of attacks as the monk at a large number of levels, thanks to the 3/4 BAB- The monk's attacks will miss more frequently, thanks to that 3/4 BAB, and he gets the same number of them.- The monk's damage will be less than the Barbarian's damage, thanks to the 150% scaling on strength from 2 handed weapons.&nbsp; And the weapon starts off with more damage.- The monk makes much worse use of spells.&nbsp; When Haste becomes a thing, the Monk gets very weak haste attacks.&nbsp; The Barbarian gets very good haste attacks.- The barbarian trades a bunch of those fiddly class features for the Uncanny Dodge feature (great) and the Rage feature (great) both of which play to the class' core competency.&nbsp; - The monk gets free healing.&nbsp; The Barbarian gets huge hit dice so he gets those HP too.- If you get into a fight with a low AC/high HP monster where the monk's flurry can theoretically pull ahead (and you're on one of the few levels where the monk actually gets an extra attack out of it) the barbarian can just spend his high BAB on 1.5 modified Power Attack strikes.&nbsp; Thus pulling ahead.The barbarian is infinitely better at charging, since Flurry doesn't apply.&nbsp; The barbarian is infinitely better whenever movement is involved.&nbsp; So basically the Monk looks really horrible next to the barbarian.&nbsp; In return he gets at like level infinity a once per WEEK save or die that relies on two separate attack rolls.&nbsp; Because the wizard won't have 5 or 6 of those on a daily cooldown at that point.&nbsp; I could buy it at like... maybe level 1 or 2?&nbsp; But past that there's no way a monk catches a Barbarian even.&nbsp; Now lets discuss what a Druid can do...P.S.&nbsp; If you wanted to fix him, you could make it so he could use flurry even when moving or charging and move his BAB to full.&nbsp; Sadly, he'd STILL be weak, but at least he'd be better.P.P.S.&nbsp; Who made D&amp;D a team game?&nbsp; Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="GreyICE, post: 6030540, member: 6684526"] If your monk is the most effective member of the party, the party has really done something terribly wrong. I'm not talking about optimization. I'm not talking about using the fixed melee classes like Warblades and Swordsages. I'm talking that a barbarian can pick up a big 2 handed weapon and just go to town. - 3/4 BAB is not worth getting an extra attack. The fighter will have the same number of attacks as the monk at a large number of levels, thanks to the 3/4 BAB - The monk's attacks will miss more frequently, thanks to that 3/4 BAB, and he gets the same number of them. - The monk's damage will be less than the Barbarian's damage, thanks to the 150% scaling on strength from 2 handed weapons. And the weapon starts off with more damage. - The monk makes much worse use of spells. When Haste becomes a thing, the Monk gets very weak haste attacks. The Barbarian gets very good haste attacks. - The barbarian trades a bunch of those fiddly class features for the Uncanny Dodge feature (great) and the Rage feature (great) both of which play to the class' core competency. - The monk gets free healing. The Barbarian gets huge hit dice so he gets those HP too. - If you get into a fight with a low AC/high HP monster where the monk's flurry can theoretically pull ahead (and you're on one of the few levels where the monk actually gets an extra attack out of it) the barbarian can just spend his high BAB on 1.5 modified Power Attack strikes. Thus pulling ahead. The barbarian is infinitely better at charging, since Flurry doesn't apply. The barbarian is infinitely better whenever movement is involved. So basically the Monk looks really horrible next to the barbarian. In return he gets at like level infinity a once per WEEK save or die that relies on two separate attack rolls. Because the wizard won't have 5 or 6 of those on a daily cooldown at that point. I could buy it at like... maybe level 1 or 2? But past that there's no way a monk catches a Barbarian even. Now lets discuss what a Druid can do... P.S. If you wanted to fix him, you could make it so he could use flurry even when moving or charging and move his BAB to full. Sadly, he'd STILL be weak, but at least he'd be better. P.P.S. Who made D&D a team game? Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. [/QUOTE]

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