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<blockquote data-quote="Bishmon" data-source="post: 4157582" data-attributes="member: 56176">For me, the rogue I most identify as a rogue, is Garrett from the Thief video games. He was a thief, sneaking into places, hiding in shadows, and killing people with his shortbow. In 4E, this is what it looks like I'll have to do to play that seemingly simple and common character.First, I'll need to take a feat to even use the shortbow, since rogues aren't even proficient with it. Then, I'll need to take a feat to be able to use sneak attack with the shortbow, since sneak attack explicitly says which weapons it applies to, and the shortbow isn't one of them.Now, since my rogue powers are probably useless (the one rogue power we've seen that works with a ranged weapon doesn't work with the shortbow), I've gotta use another feat to get access to ranger powers. Best case scenario, that feat will allow me to just pick ranger powers in place of my rogue powers. Worst case scenario, it'll give me one ranger power, and I'll need to spend another feat in a couple levels to get another ranger power.So even in this best case scenario, I've spent three feats and probably five levels (assuming one feat every other level) to even get to the level of proficiency the other classes had with their weapons at the beginning of the game.Alternately, I could just use the ranger, since that's got the bow proficiencies and the necessary powers. But then I'd have to rip out any woodsman flavor from the class, change the skill list, and modify class features to get rid of the 'hunter' vibe and add a 'sneak attacker' vibe. That's no small task.Like I said, the narrower focus of 4E classes has certain advantages and disadvantages. It's already easy to see examples of each.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bishmon, post: 4157582, member: 56176"] For me, the rogue I most identify as a rogue, is Garrett from the Thief video games. He was a thief, sneaking into places, hiding in shadows, and killing people with his shortbow. In 4E, this is what it looks like I'll have to do to play that seemingly simple and common character. First, I'll need to take a feat to even use the shortbow, since rogues aren't even proficient with it. Then, I'll need to take a feat to be able to use sneak attack with the shortbow, since sneak attack explicitly says which weapons it applies to, and the shortbow isn't one of them. Now, since my rogue powers are probably useless (the one rogue power we've seen that works with a ranged weapon doesn't work with the shortbow), I've gotta use another feat to get access to ranger powers. Best case scenario, that feat will allow me to just pick ranger powers in place of my rogue powers. Worst case scenario, it'll give me one ranger power, and I'll need to spend another feat in a couple levels to get another ranger power. So even in this best case scenario, I've spent three feats and probably five levels (assuming one feat every other level) to even get to the level of proficiency the other classes had with their weapons at the beginning of the game. Alternately, I could just use the ranger, since that's got the bow proficiencies and the necessary powers. But then I'd have to rip out any woodsman flavor from the class, change the skill list, and modify class features to get rid of the 'hunter' vibe and add a 'sneak attacker' vibe. That's no small task. Like I said, the narrower focus of 4E classes has certain advantages and disadvantages. It's already easy to see examples of each. [/QUOTE]

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