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D&D 5E How many encounters per day is YOUR average?

On average, how many combat encounters do you experience per day in a 5e game?


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Legendary resist on a save for half fireball is half damage bot zero. Dave for null spells are zero. Thst was a mistake I made but doesn't significantly change things there is still the if targets exist and those targets politely gather within a 20 foot radius sphere problem
 

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S'mon

Legend
*If we are choosing primal path then let's choose the crappiest one like we did for the Fighter.

What's the crappiest Primal Path? Maybe a non-Bear Totem? They all give special powers though.
IME the Raging Barbarian does similar* damage to the Champion Fighter without Reckless Attack, and has 1 point lower AC as you say, but is much much more durable. That's all without Feats. I know you are sceptical of others' experience without documentary support but I do have text-chat records of several years of play (in my NSFW Wilderlands campaign blog, can PM link) before I went over to 1 week long rests. The Barbarian players were quite disconsolate as with 8 hour LR they were used to dominating play at the expense of the Fighter, Rogue, Cleric(!), Warlock et al.

*If there is only 1 encounter in the day, it's not likely to be an easy 3-round beatdown. 6-8 rounds would be more typical, in which case Action Surge does not make much difference, so it's basically Duellist & very occasional 19 crit vs Rage bonus and the option to go Reckless.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
What's the crappiest Primal Path? Maybe a non-Bear Totem? They all give special powers though.
IME the Raging Barbarian does similar* damage to the Champion Fighter without Reckless Attack, and has 1 point lower AC as you say, but is much much more durable. That's all without Feats. I know you are sceptical of others' experience without documentary support but I do have text-chat records of several years of play (in my NSFW Wilderlands campaign blog, can PM link) before I went over to 1 week long rests. The Barbarian players were quite disconsolate as with 8 hour LR they were used to dominating play at the expense of the Fighter, Rogue, Cleric et al.

*If there is only 1 encounter in the day, it's not likely to be an easy 3-round beatdown. 6-8 rounds would be more typical, in which case Action Surge does not make much difference, so it's basically Duellist & very occasional 19 crit vs Rage bonus and the option to go Reckless.
Are you talking in a short adventuring day or a long one?
 



FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
We're talking about a single encounter between LR, right? The more encounters & the more SRs, the better the Fighter does and the worse the Barbarian does.
Just making sure. So tell us about the Champion Fighter and Barbarian in one of those single encounter days. How were they built? What actions did they take? How often was the Barbarian reckless attacking? How many rounds did the encounter go? Did they get any assistance from the other party members?
 

Agreed. But then we get into the issue that doing a bunch of damage to a single target until it dies and doing some AOE damage to a bunch of targets without killing them doesn't have the same effect in combat. That is total damage caused by an AOE is not directly comparable single target damage numbers.
No, but bear in mind we're not letting the wizard use control spells, which do remove opponents immediately, preventing the damage that they would deal while it lasts.
There was no real way to compare those so I reckoned they were much of a muchness.



You only have 1 level 6 and 1 level 7 spell slot. You can't cast a level 7 animate objects + disintegrate + disintegrate in a single encounter. I chose a level 5 animate objects for that reason.

Also I used 65% to hit and 65% chance for a failed save. That's what yielded the 227.
Whoops. Good save. I get 234 damage which is close enough.
I used 2/3rds chance to hit rather than actual 30%. That is close enough to 65% I think.


Fighter was doing 120 over 4 rounds at level 6. Add on an extra attack and he should be able to easily reach 180 since going from 2 attacks to 3 is a 50% damage upgrade. I anticipate it can be a little higher since comboing maneuvers on your action surge round leads to somewhat increased efficiency.

Though, I think there's been a subtle change from 4 round encounter in my example to 3 round here. So in a 3 round fight I would only expect about 12/15 (80%) as much. So yea, 150 - 170ish in a 3 round encounter is about right.
I'm assuming fighter kicks in their action surge, so they effectively get an extra round of attacks. Hence why they got 10 attacks in a 4-round battle at level 6. In a 3 round fight they would get 4 rounds x 3 attacks = 12 attacks. At level 13 they would have one extra superiority dice, and would be using D10s rather than D8s so I rounded the 144 up to 150.

The examples I was discussing with you were the 4-round single combat at 6th level you gave as your example. The three round fight at 13th level is something Tetrasodium has suggested.

Wizards have pulled ahead a little here, however - Add in a single +1 magical weapon and that goes up quite a bit - which is all but guaranteed by that level. Add in a single level multiclass dip into warlock for hex and the damage ramps up even higher. Add in feats and damage ramps up even higher. It's pretty easy to push Fighter damage at this level much higher. Wizard's 227 damage is all but capped and relies on concentration - which can easily be disrupted, especially without feats and it also relies on enemies not having magical/legendary resistance.
Indeed, but bear in mind that we're comparing the thing the Fighter is best at with something that is tertiary for the Wizard (after control, AoE, exploration).
You can add further Benefits on to your example fighter, and further restrictions to your example wizard, but at some point you have to consider whether you're still talking about the original examples.


So I go to some trouble to show how I expect a 4 round adventuring day to play out at level 4 and all I got back is - 'that's not my experience'. No additional explanation or clarification. You don't see how incredibly dismissive that was?
They weren't responding to your in-depth analysis post. They were responding to the post where you said the classes were balanced over a one-encounter day.

I picked evoker wizard in my example for that reason. He's generally party safe.
Indeed. How many opponents are generally featured in your 1/day encounters?
 

S'mon

Legend
Just making sure. So tell us about the Champion Fighter and Barbarian in one of those single encounter days. How were they built? What actions did they take? How often was the Barbarian reckless attacking? How many rounds did the encounter go? Did they get any assistance from the other party members?

I'm not digging through the last 6 years of 5e fights I've run for you, but if you want to do so there are a ton of text chat game logs at Forgotten Realms Campaigns & Varisia: Rise of the Runelords & NSFW Sensitive Content Warning - the latter has the early years games 2015-16 before I went over to 1 week long rests.

My impressions: Typically Champions are played by the less minmaxy players to start with, while most Barbarians are Bear Totem for maximum survivability. The Champions don't always Action Surge straight off. The Bear-Barians tend not to Reckless much, preferring to keep a good AC and wear down the enemy over a large number of combat rounds (say 6-8 like I said), by which time the Champions are usually badly bashed up. There's usually some support from other squishy PCs eg in Wilderlands the early group was typically Berserker Barbarian, Champion Fighter, Assassin Rogue and a Warlock of the Fey. The Rogue & Barbarian players were quite skilled, the other two not.
In my current Faerun games one group has a Goliath Champion Fighter and a Berserker Barbarian. The Barbarian is higher level, the Fighter player having lost two other PCs so far, so cannot compare directly esp as it's currently Barb-5 vs Fighter-4 so the Barb has x2 offence right off. Having lots of encounters between LRs definitely helps though.

Edit: My current Faerun Adventures PC groups are:
(1)
Greeba of Soravia (Jelena) Half-Orc female Barbarian-5 (Berserker) XP 10,375/14,000 AC 18 (scale, shield, DEX+2) HP 50 (14+9/level), +1 warhammer; flametongue longsword P-PER 10 P-INV 9 P-INS 13
Gorlock the Warlock (Tony) Half-Elf male Celestial Warlock-5 XP 10,375/14,000 AC 15 HP 43 (11+8/level) P-PER 11 P-INV 11 P-INS 11.
Wisteria of Skullspire (Jelly) Moon Elf female Grave Cleric-5 XP 9,791/14,000 AC 17 HP 38 (10+7/lvl) P-PER 16 P-INV 12 P-INS 16. MI: +1 longbow
Eamon of the Yellow Rose (Bill) Human male Monk-5 (Kensai) XP 9,321/14,000 AC 16/18 HP 33 (9+6/lvl) P-PER 12 P-INV 10 P-INS 15 MI: +1 longsword
Nathia Truefist (Kim) Goliath female Fighter-4 (Champion) XP 5,549/6,500 AC 16/18 HP 36 (12+8/lvl) P-PER 12 P-INV 9 P-INS 10
Joell Elderberry (Max) Aasimar male Paladin-4 (Oath of Conquest) XP 3,149/6500 AC 21 (plate & shield) HP 32 (11+7/lvl) P-PER 11 P-INV 9 P-INS 11
Blurb (Phil) Firbolg male Forest Druid-3 XP 900/2700 AC 16 HP 24 P-PER 13 P-INV 9 P-INS 13
Mac (Matt) Hill Dwarf male Hunter Ranger-3 XP 1,922/2,700 AC 17 HP 34 (14+10/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INV 9 P-INS 12
Quasi-PC
Trystan
, the Bard of Leth (Jelly) Half-Elf male Bard-4 XP 2,700/2,700 AC 15 HP 31 P-PER 10 P-INV 11 P-INS 10

(2)
Norrin Son of Thorin (Geoff) Human male Fighter-6 (Champion) PB+3 XP 19,936/23,000 AC 22 (plate +1 & shield +1) HP 58 (13+9/level) P-PER 15 P-INV 12 P-INS 15 MI: +1 Nar 'hero sword' longsword, +1 plate armour, +1 shield, +1 Duergar greatsword
Strohm of Leth (Muiz) Sun Elf male Fighter-6 (Eldritch Knight) XP 18,167/23,000 AC 19 (orog plate, defence style) HP 52 (12+8/lvl) P-PER 12 P-INV 12 P-INS 9. MI: +2 Greatsword - Excruciator, the Sword of Amaul, aka the Sword of the Sorcerer (sheds light as per spell on command)
Malied Edicast (James) Half-Elf male Wizard-6 XP 17,318/23,000 AC 13/16 mage armour HP 26 (6+4/lvl) P-PER 14 P-INV 18 P-INS 11. Blessing: +2 INT from Gina the Gynosphinx
Fraener ap Durgeddin (Chris) Mountain Dwarf male Forge Cleric-5 XP 13,927/14,000 AC 22 (AC19 plate armour +1, +3 for shield blessed to +1) HP 48 (12+9/lvl) E: Durgeddin's own +1 full plate armour (+0/+1 at 5th level), +1 Duergar warhammer, +2 Mace. P-PER 12 P-INV 10 P-INS 15
Ted (Matt) Half-Orc male Rogue-5 (Thief) XP 7,465/14,000 AC 15 (studded) HP 38 (10+7/lvl) P-PER 15 P-INV 9 P-INS 11 MI: Ostrikka's/Jack's gauntlets of ogre power STR 19, +1 Durgeddin Rapier from Tenho, Barbara's Rope of Climbing
Queale (Keelia) Half-Elf female Horizon Walker Ranger-4 XP 7,096/6,500>14,000 AC 16 HP 40 (13+9/level) P-PER 15 P-INV 12 P-INS 15 MI: cute rabbit fur slippers of elvenkind
Shivers
(Rich), Human male Rogue-3>4 (Assassin) XP 3,999/2,700>6,500 AC 14 HP 21>29 (9+6/lvl, rolled 8 hp for 4th) P-PER 13 P-INV 13 P-INS 11

With an open sandbox style, 1 hour SR and 1 hour LR, no Feats or Multiclassing, the classes seem pretty balanced to me. Without Feats, Humans are definitely weak - esp as there's a lot of dungeoncrawling where darkvision helps.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I'm not digging through the last 6 years of 5e fights I've run for you, but if you want to do so there are a ton of text chat game logs at Forgotten Realms Campaigns & Varisia: Rise of the Runelords & NSFW Sensitive Content Warning - the latter has the early years games 2015-16 before I went over to 1 week long rests.

My impressions: Typically Champions are played by the less minmaxy players to start with, while most Barbarians are Bear Totem for maximum survivability. The Champions don't always Action Surge straight off. The Bear-Barians tend not to Reckless much, preferring to keep a good AC and wear down the enemy over a large number of combat rounds (say 6-8 like I said), by which time the Champions are usually badly bashed up. There's usually some support from other squishy PCs eg in Wilderlands the early group was typically Berserker Barbarian, Champion Fighter, Assassin Rogue and a Warlock of the Fey. The Rogue & Barbarian players were quite skilled, the other two not.
In my current Faerun games one group has a Goliath Champion Fighter and a Berserker Barbarian. The Barbarian is higher level, the Fighter player having lost two other PCs so far, so cannot compare directly esp as it's currently Barb-5 vs Fighter-4 so the Barb has x2 offence right off. Having lots of encounters between LRs definitely helps though.
And you expect me to? LOL. Basically you've got nothing.

I will say both my experience and numbers back up barbarians being way tankier - but that's because the barbarians I see don't reckless attack every round. Their tankiness skyrockets when they don't give enemies advantage. When they don't do that on short adventuring days their damage drops pretty low. Both the white room numbers and my experience shows that.
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, I only expect you to not be a d*ck about demanding to see other people's documentation while happily spewing white room assertions yourself.
I mean if you had anything to back up your assertions you wouldn't be calling me that. I mean, you could show evidence in white room. You could show it with an actual play experience where you have actual details about that play experience.

But at this point your just being dismissive about my white room for no good reason - because you've got nothing that shows my white room is incorrect.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, but bear in mind we're not letting the wizard use control spells, which do remove opponents immediately, preventing the damage that they would deal while it lasts.
There was no real way to compare those so I reckoned they were much of a muchness.
I'd suggest that there is a strong argument that control is better. There's also a strong argument that versatility adds power. Both of those arguments hold whether in a short or long adventuring day though.

Because of this I'd even suggest that Wizards are better compared to fighters in longer adventuring days. For every encounter the Fighter can action surge and dump battlemaster manuevers on, the wizard can cast a level 3+ control spell. By level 9 the wizard can cast a level 3+ control spell in virtually every encounter. The Fighter will only action surge and use superiority dice in maybe 3ish encounters per day.

The question isn't whether we can argue that wizards are stronger than fighters - which is what you seem to be trying to show. The question is does changing the adventuring day from long to short really change that power differential for combat. I don't think it significantly does.


Whoops. Good save. I get 234 damage which is close enough.
I used 2/3rds chance to hit rather than actual 30%. That is close enough to 65% I think.
Nice that 1% chance to hit difference is probably that 7 damage difference.


I'm assuming fighter kicks in their action surge, so they effectively get an extra round of attacks. Hence why they got 10 attacks in a 4-round battle at level 6. In a 3 round fight they would get 4 rounds x 3 attacks = 12 attacks. At level 13 they would have one extra superiority dice, and would be using D10s rather than D8s so I rounded the 144 up to 150.
Using 4 rounds.

So my basis is this - I know that a level 6 Half Orc Fighter can do a NOVA round of 67.1 DPR (it's hard to calculate as it combines action surge, trip attack and precision attack, but it is calculatable). By level 13 he gets bigger superiority dice, another superiority dice and another attack. The bare minimum i'd expect his Nova round to do would be 50% more, puttinh him right at 100 DPR. The reamining Rounds would be something like 27.2 DPR each. That puts him up to 180 DPR. Using superiority dice a little more wisely may boost DPR further. So I'd expect to be able to get really close to 200 Damage over 4 rounds and that's without feats or multiclassing or magic weapons. Any of which can skyrocket that number.

They weren't responding to your in-depth analysis post. They were responding to the post where you said the classes were balanced over a one-encounter day.
Those posts are all connected.

Indeed. How many opponents are generally featured in your 1/day encounters?
When I'm running it will be 1-4 typically. Occasionally I'll put a bunch. Some areas will have multiple encounters, but those are fairly rare.

The last few have been (party is all level 3) -
  • 1 succubus
  • 2 werewolves
  • 6 gnomes (mix of pc like classes and repurposed goblins)
  • 1 longer day of 1 mindwitness, followed by an interrupted short rest of 2 grells, followed by an interrupted long rest of 4 level 1 GOO warlock cultists.
  • 2 winter wolves
 

I'd suggest that there is a strong argument that control is better. There's also a strong argument that versatility adds power. Both of those arguments hold whether in a short or long adventuring day though.
Agreed.

Because of this I'd even suggest that Wizards are better compared to fighters in longer adventuring days. For every encounter the Fighter can action surge and dump battlemaster manuevers on, the wizard can cast a level 3+ control spell. By level 9 the wizard can cast a level 3+ control spell in virtually every encounter. The Fighter will only action surge and use superiority dice in maybe 3ish encounters per day.
But if you have just one encounter in a day, the wizard can cast those level 3+ spells every round, whereas the fighter can only use their resources once. The fighter only gets to use 1/3rd of their daily resources, but the wizard gets to use almost all of theirs.

The question isn't whether we can argue that wizards are stronger than fighters - which is what you seem to be trying to show. The question is does changing the adventuring day from long to short really change that power differential for combat. I don't think it significantly does.
Agreed. General wizard vs fighter power comparison is beyond the scope of this comparison. - However I am trying to show that the balance point does change with different numbers of encounters. (Or rounds of combat.)
The wizard dealing more damage than the fighter in the first encounter is less important than the wizard's power reducing with the number of encounters, whereas the Fighter's power remains steadier.

So my basis is this - I know that a level 6 Half Orc Fighter can do a NOVA round of 67.1 DPR (it's hard to calculate as it combines action surge, trip attack and precision attack, but it is calculatable). By level 13 he gets bigger superiority dice, another superiority dice and another attack. The bare minimum i'd expect his Nova round to do would be 50% more, puttinh him right at 100 DPR. The reamining Rounds would be something like 27.2 DPR each. That puts him up to 180 DPR. Using superiority dice a little more wisely may boost DPR further. So I'd expect to be able to get really close to 200 Damage over 4 rounds and that's without feats or multiclassing or magic weapons. Any of which can skyrocket that number.
I was assuming the superiority dice were used in precision attack to turn misses into hits. Your earlier analysis showed the fighter seemed to be dealing 12 damage per attack, which translates to a rather unlikely 18 damage per hit given a 65% hit rate. If the hit rate was significantly improved through precision attack, that would explain the numbers.
However, the more attacks you make, the more SD you will need to burn to maintain that high DPR. Between level 6 and level 13, you get 50% more attacks, but only gain a single SD. Given the SD are a chunk of your effective damage, your DPR will go up by less than 50% when you get 50% more attacks.
Technically, the ballpark 150 damage in 3 rounds for a level 13 fighter that I estimated based on your figures was probably too high, because it depends on a hit rate that the fighter cannot maintain at that level.

When I'm running it will be 1-4 typically. Occasionally I'll put a bunch. Some areas will have multiple encounters, but those are fairly rare.

The last few have been (party is all level 3) -
  • 1 succubus
  • 2 werewolves
  • 6 gnomes (mix of pc like classes and repurposed goblins)
  • 1 longer day of 1 mindwitness, followed by an interrupted short rest of 2 grells, followed by an interrupted long rest of 4 level 1 GOO warlock cultists.
  • 2 winter wolves
Ah. That would explain the difference in our experiences. Generally if I do a single major encounter in a day, it will have more than just a couple of opponents in it.
 

Agreed.

But if you have just one encounter in a day, the wizard can cast those level 3+ spells every round, whereas the fighter can only use their resources once. The fighter only gets to use 1/3rd of their daily resources, but the wizard gets to use almost all of theirs.

Agreed. General wizard vs fighter power comparison is beyond the scope of this comparison. - However I am trying to show that the balance point does change with different numbers of encounters. (Or rounds of combat.)
The wizard dealing more damage than the fighter in the first encounter is less important than the wizard's power reducing with the number of encounters, whereas the Fighter's power remains steadier.

I was assuming the superiority dice were used in precision attack to turn misses into hits. Your earlier analysis showed the fighter seemed to be dealing 12 damage per attack, which translates to a rather unlikely 18 damage per hit given a 65% hit rate. If the hit rate was significantly improved through precision attack, that would explain the numbers.
However, the more attacks you make, the more SD you will need to burn to maintain that high DPR. Between level 6 and level 13, you get 50% more attacks, but only gain a single SD. Given the SD are a chunk of your effective damage, your DPR will go up by less than 50% when you get 50% more attacks.
Technically, the ballpark 150 damage in 3 rounds for a level 13 fighter that I estimated based on your figures was probably too high, because it depends on a hit rate that the fighter cannot maintain at that level.

Ah. That would explain the difference in our experiences. Generally if I do a single major encounter in a day, it will have more than just a couple of opponents in it.
You are missing some things though by trying to compress high level LOLdeadly encounters down into 3 rounds though. doing that will cause the fights to drag out with the inflated HP values creeping up up up.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
But if you have just one encounter in a day, the wizard can cast those level 3+ spells every round, whereas the fighter can only use their resources once. The fighter only gets to use 1/3rd of their daily resources, but the wizard gets to use almost all of theirs.
A level 6 wizard is using 3 level 3 slots in that encounter. He is leaving up to 4 level 1 slots, 3 level 2 slots and 1 level 3 slot (arcane recovery) on the table. That's alot of power left on the table.

A level 13 wizard used a level 5, 6 and 7 slot. He is leaving up to 4 level 1 slots, 3 level 2 slots, 3 level 3 slots, 3 level 4 slots, and 2 level 5 slots (1 from arcane recovery). That's even more power left on the table.

But, I don't think that's a very important point overall. One can't judge how much power a class pushes into a limited number of rounds by looking at how much power they have left on the table afterwards.

Agreed. General wizard vs fighter power comparison is beyond the scope of this comparison. - However I am trying to show that the balance point does change with different numbers of encounters. (Or rounds of combat.)
The wizard dealing more damage than the fighter in the first encounter is less important than the wizard's power reducing with the number of encounters, whereas the Fighter's power remains steadier.
That's almost never how that works out in practice. Generally speaking if longer adventuring days are common then the caster conserves some higher level resources for the adventuring day. Fighters are the ones constantly in the realm of use it or lose it. I wonder how many action surges have went unused in games before the next rest, especially those that commonly have 2 short rests per day.

I was assuming the superiority dice were used in precision attack to turn misses into hits. Your earlier analysis showed the fighter seemed to be dealing 12 damage per attack, which translates to a rather unlikely 18 damage per hit given a 65% hit rate. If the hit rate was significantly improved through precision attack, that would explain the numbers.
Trip attack is a huge increase to chance to hit. It's even more valuable on a sequence of 6 attacks than it is on a sequence of 4 attacks as the proportion of attacks it will give advantage at any point in that sequence is higher at that level. I don't think you are factoring that in. And this isn't even the optimal use of superiority dice. One could easily get advantage on more of their attacks by saving some trip attacks from the Nova round and using them on subsequent rounds. Potentially granting 3-6 more attacks advantage by the end of the encounter (You only make 15 attacks in 4 rounds with action surge and so that's huge).

However, the more attacks you make, the more SD you will need to burn to maintain that high DPR. Between level 6 and level 13, you get 50% more attacks, but only gain a single SD. Given the SD are a chunk of your effective damage, your DPR will go up by less than 50% when you get 50% more attacks.
Precision attack at most can be used on 40% of attacks. More realistically you get a bigger bang for your buck if you only use it on say the 25% of attacks you miss by 1-5. Meaning you only would need 25% more superiority dice to keep up with the rate you are getting more attacks from a purely precision attack point of view. 25% of 4 superiority dice is +1 superiority dice. Amazing how that works out.

But for this Fighter Trip Attack tends to be more important than precision (precision tends to help more with GWM builds).
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You are missing some things though by trying to compress high level LOLdeadly encounters down into 3 rounds though. doing that will cause the fights to drag out with the inflated HP values creeping up up up.

The more rounds in a single encounter day the more spell casters tend to shine. Featless Fighters only tend to keep up in 3-4 round days.
 

The more rounds in a single encounter day the more spell casters tend to shine. Featless Fighters only tend to keep up in 3-4 round days.
  • "Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the w ebs or until it breaks free."
  • "A creature affected by this spell makes another Wisdom saving throw at the end of its turn. On a successful save, the effect ends for it."
  • "Also, the target can make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the spell ends."
  • "Each time the target takes damage, it makes a new Wisdom saving throw against the spell. If the saving throw succeeds, the spell ends."
  • "
  • At the end of each of its turns, it can make another Wisdom saving throw. If it succeeds, the effect ends."
  • so on & so forth...

All of those no cost free save to end or ignore the spell clauses add up as combat durations go up. The fact that so many of them are only having to make those extra free saves because they failed the initial save to nullify the spell/casting itself makes the free no cost saves a bigger issue when shrinking the adventuring day with deadly & beyond creatures likely to have better saves & such than medium encounter creatures
 

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