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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 5838609" data-attributes="member: 32164">My math is fine. Read more carefully. The critical hit argument (down in one hit) works fine if critical hits do double damage. A perfect crit drops a fighter with up to 16 hp.I admit that 13 hp would be the appropriate number for a first level fighter if I was dead set on him going down on the third hit. However, I'm not, and 13 hp has the disadvantage of not allowing enough design space for the other classes. Having fighters gain 3 hp/level, rogues and clerics 2, and wizards who gain just 1 hp/level just doesn't seem like enough of a benefit from leveling up to me. Obviously, YMMV. So I choose to err on the side of a slightly more durable fighter. Although I suppose 2, 3, and 4 might be reasonable (meaning a 14 hp 1st-level fighter), and since you can't actually roll a 13.5, that would mean my character would drop on the third hit about half the time. And he could be killed by a good crit from a longsword, even if you assume the [MAX(weapon) + d6] model for crits.Going to your example, the only way you get 13 hp from [maxd10 + Con bonus] is if the fighter has a 16 or 17 CON. Which is very, very high. For the 14 CON fighter they talk about, the number is 12 hp. Which might be enough, but seems a bit low to me. The 10 CON fighter we've been discussing is dead on an average hit from a greatsword wielded by a STR 18 fighter - no crit necessary. That's a bit TOO lethal in my book.The bigger issue with using HD creeps in over levels. If you let the character add his CON bonus to all rolls, the numbers go nuts. Similarly, the hit point discrepancy between the classes can grow to ludicrous extremes. Even if you assume average die rolls, there's a HUGE discrepancy between gaining 5-6 hp per level (the avg. of a d10) and gaining 2-3 (the average on a d4). So while rolled HD gives the right number at 1st-level, it's a cluster by 10th, because the discrepancy is SOOO high.Similarly, one could simply use the CON score (which gives the 14 CON fighter 14 hp at 1st-level), but then our fighter is getting no benefit (hit point wise) at 1st-level from BEING a fighter. All the benefit comes from his high CON, so as far as his ability to take hits, he might as well be a blacksmith, a healthy farmer, or a really tough wizard. And I'm not sure I like THAT either. So clearly, in my mind, this is far more complicated than the seemingly simple question of "how many hits at first level?"I'll also point out that we can all safely ignore the proliferation of high con scores by admitting that a high strength more than cancels a high con. That's only not true if the character benefits from his high con score repeatedly over many levels. Which I've already explained is bad for other reasons.</blockquote>

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