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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Obryn" data-source="post: 6057439" data-attributes="member: 11821">I posted something similar on another board, and thought I'd post here, too.  I got to thinking last night (prompted by other conversations I've seen before) ... let's assume a perfectly "associated" system/game world in which the game's rules are the physics of the universe and the player's choices are based on their character's knowledge.I've been thinking a lot about Earthdawn recently, which more or less takes D&D's tropes and makes them elements of its metaphysics - spell matrices, adepts, levels, etc.  Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to hop down this rabbit hole and apply that logic to D&D.  Since the edition where the game's rules are most assumed to be the game's physics is 3.x/PF, that's the one I went with.So... Let's assume there's a tower with a bunch of smart wizards, as you'd expect to find in many fantasy settings.  They decide to start experimenting about the nature of the universe.  How many of the game's rules could a character in that game figure out through experimentation and observation?Here's what I've come up with so far...(1) They know that their members can prepare X, Y, Z spells of I, II, III levels - spell level is an obvious sort of thing - and that these are always distinct quantities in a regular progression. They have at this point figured out the basics of the spell chart.(2) The ranges, durations, and areas of effect of their spells increase in distinct, quantized measurements - usually 5' or 10' or 6 seconds or 1 minute each* - and this increase corresponds with the number of spells prepared.(3) These gains only come in specific, discrete units.At this point, these Wizards have figured out Levels as a fundamental feature of the universe, and can even engineer out their specific levels through use of (for example) spell ranges.  (Example: Summon Monster I.  It can be cast at discrete ranges that increase every other level, and for durations that increase by precisely 6 seconds every level.*)(4) From these formulas, they can easily determine their actual numerical level, and it would be incredibly sensible for them to refer to Bob as a "5th level wizard" in the same sense as his player would.(5) From differences in max spell levels and bonus spells, they've not only figured out the granularity and existence of the Intelligence stat, they know who's smarter.(6) With some assistance of some clerics (those of the gods of magic and/or knowledge should suffice) they can work out the same for Clerics - and work out their actual numerical levels.  Likewise, with Sorcerers.  In the process, they have determined the existence and granularity of the Wisdom and Charisma statistics.(7) The Wizards can get people to lift heavy things. They notice the maximum amounts their subjects can lift are, in turn, quantized into distinct units of measurement instead of scaling smoothly. By casting buffing spells, they can work out the progression and notice that it matches at every step. They have just worked out possibly as much as the entire 3-18 or 3-22 scale for Strength and can refer to it by a number.(8) By blasting damaging spells at uniform targets of specific kind - like walls and blocks of wood - they can determine the percent of the time the item is blown up. By letting Wizards of different levels do this, they can further chart the efficacy - the block of wood is destroyed X% of the time by a Fireball spell by a wizard of Y level. At this point, they can figure out Hit Points as a fundamental feature of objects.(8a) If they're particularly unethical, they can figure it out about goblins or kobolds, too.(9) By the same token, they can determine that the probability of destroying targets is shaped in a curve best represented by Xd6, where X is their Level.(10) With repeated uses of spells like Charm Person (or a new 0-level spell called "I failed my Will Save if I say 'AGH MY BRAIN'") on each other, they can determine (a) saving throws, (b) characters' Will save progressions, (c) the caster's Intelligence bonuses, and (d) the targets' Wisdom bonuses with sufficient trials.Okay. So at this point, these Wizards can speak about Levels, Saving Throws, Wisdom Bonuses, Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma and Hit Points. What else can they do? Can they - from the spell list in the PHB - figure out the entire rules of the game in which they are characters?-O* As an aside, "five feet" and "six seconds" are fundamental measurements of the universe, bound into its metaphysical laws.  It would do them well to use those for the basis of all measurement and timekeeping.</blockquote>

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