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<blockquote data-quote="Dursk Starkfire" data-source="post: 1249165" data-attributes="member: 7561">Camarath, I believe everybody is in agreement that invisibility ends after the first attack, irregardless of whether it is contained within a full-round attack. I think what is being questioned is whether the defender remains flat-footed from being attacked by an invisible opponent. I guess this would bring up the concept of having surprise rounds within rounds of combat.&nbsp; If you consider that the defender is completely unaware of the invisible rogue, then combat could be technically considered to not have begun between the two.&nbsp; The defendent would probably be allowed spot/listen checks to see if he notices the invisible rogue before being attacked, and if he is unaware, the rogue should get a &quot;surprise&quot; round in the midst of combat.&nbsp; The problem with this is that it gets very difficult to administer multiple initiatives for multiple characters, and how to you judicate a surprise round in the midst of combat? Does the rogue get penalized with a standard action despite other combatants having a full round action available?Let's take the following scenario: (Rogue init 24, Fighter init 12, Barbarian init 8). The Rogue (R) and Barbarian (B) are on the same side and are hiding out (invisible) in an alley for any inopportunistic travellers in order to relinquish their wealth.surprise round:BR&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FR does nothingB does nothingF has no clue and walks beside R thinking that round 1:BRFRogue sneak attacks Fighter at full-attack bonus. R is visible after first attack. Following attacks apply sneak-attack damage as F is flat-footed (due to initiative). Fighter draws weapon and smacks R once. B moves into position and attacks F once.round 2:RFBR realizes he's in trouble, and leaves combat (3 rounds)F attacks B (full-attack)B attacks F (full-attack)round 5:&nbsp;F&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; RBR drinks potion of invisibility and returns to combat (4 rounds)round 9:&nbsp;FRBR is not smart enough to flank with B, but moves into position to attack F.F fails listen and spot checks, is unaware of R.F attacks B (full-attack)B attacks F (full-attack)round 10:R attacks F (full-attack) and becomes visible on first attack. Now, is F considered flat-footed as he was unaware of his opponent, and thus denied his dex bonus? Or, does he instantly realize that he has an opponent, despite not having his initiative come up?Thanks,Dursk</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dursk Starkfire, post: 1249165, member: 7561"] Camarath, I believe everybody is in agreement that invisibility ends after the first attack, irregardless of whether it is contained within a full-round attack. I think what is being questioned is whether the defender remains flat-footed from being attacked by an invisible opponent. I guess this would bring up the concept of having surprise rounds within rounds of combat. If you consider that the defender is completely unaware of the invisible rogue, then combat could be technically considered to not have begun between the two. The defendent would probably be allowed spot/listen checks to see if he notices the invisible rogue before being attacked, and if he is unaware, the rogue should get a "surprise" round in the midst of combat. The problem with this is that it gets very difficult to administer multiple initiatives for multiple characters, and how to you judicate a surprise round in the midst of combat? Does the rogue get penalized with a standard action despite other combatants having a full round action available? Let's take the following scenario: (Rogue init 24, Fighter init 12, Barbarian init 8). The Rogue (R) and Barbarian (B) are on the same side and are hiding out (invisible) in an alley for any inopportunistic travellers in order to relinquish their wealth. surprise round: BR F R does nothing B does nothing F has no clue and walks beside R thinking that round 1: BRF Rogue sneak attacks Fighter at full-attack bonus. R is visible after first attack. Following attacks apply sneak-attack damage as F is flat-footed (due to initiative). Fighter draws weapon and smacks R once. B moves into position and attacks F once. round 2: RF B R realizes he's in trouble, and leaves combat (3 rounds) F attacks B (full-attack) B attacks F (full-attack) round 5: F R B R drinks potion of invisibility and returns to combat (4 rounds) round 9: FR B R is not smart enough to flank with B, but moves into position to attack F. F fails listen and spot checks, is unaware of R. F attacks B (full-attack) B attacks F (full-attack) round 10: R attacks F (full-attack) and becomes visible on first attack. Now, is F considered flat-footed as he was unaware of his opponent, and thus denied his dex bonus? Or, does he instantly realize that he has an opponent, despite not having his initiative come up? Thanks, Dursk [/QUOTE]

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