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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 8800783" data-attributes="member: 2629">I hope our future edition will assume the grid is used in the future to limit these types of uncertainties.&nbsp; I handle these issues by telling the player that placing the spell so precisely requires skill.&nbsp; It just makes sense to me that if you're trying to be really precise in placement, you need to account for a risk of failure to execute as intended.&nbsp; They'll have to make an arcana (int based or charisma based) / religion / nature check to place the spell.&nbsp; We'll quickly negotiate what types of risks they want to take (&quot;I really want to get the leader, but am willing to risk missing the minions&quot;).&nbsp; Then the result of their check will determine how many of their intended targets they get.&nbsp; Generally, DC 20 allows great 2D positioning and DC 25 gets you great 3D positioning.&nbsp; &nbsp; So if there are four medium targets in a square formation with four flying tiny creatures above them creating a cube of enemies, I'd handle various scenarios like this:Scenario 1: Player: &quot;I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult.&nbsp; The DC to get all of them will be 28.&nbsp; Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?&quot;Player: &quot;Nope.&nbsp; I just want as many as I can get.&quot;DM: &quot;Roll a trained Charisma Roll.&quot;Player: &quot;... 23.&quot;DM: &quot;Pretty solid but you missed by 5.&nbsp; Roll a d8 for each creature.&nbsp; On a 1 through 6 you get a medium creatures.&nbsp; On a 1 through 4 you get a flying creatures.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Player: &quot; ... OK, I get these 2 mediums and these 2 flyers. &quot;Scenario 2:Player: &quot;I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult.&nbsp; The DC to get all of them will be 28.&nbsp; Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?&quot;Player: &quot;I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration.&nbsp; Other than that, I think the flying ones are the priority.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;If you want to be sure to get the leader, the DC rises to 30 to get them all.&nbsp; However, no matter what you'll get the leader.&nbsp; The other creatures will be less likely to be caught in it, but the chances of getting the tiny flying creatures will be the same as getting the other medium creatures.&nbsp; Normally they'd be harder to get.&quot;Player: &quot;Understood ... Trained Charisma?&nbsp; 23.&quot;DM: &quot;Pretty solid but you missed by 7.&nbsp; Roll a die for each of the other 7 creatures.&nbsp; If it is odd you get them.&nbsp; If it is even you miss them.&quot;Player: &quot; ... OK, I get 1 of the other mediums and these 3 flyers. &quot;Scenario 3:Player: &quot;I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers.&quot;&nbsp; DM: &quot;As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult.&nbsp; The DC to get all of them will be 28.&nbsp; Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?&quot;Player: &quot;I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration.&nbsp; I'm willing to risk missing those tiny flying creatures.&quot;DM: &quot;Got it.&nbsp; We'll have you roll your check.&nbsp; You'll get the main spellcaster in the area automatically.&nbsp; On a 23 or above you definitely get all of the ground creatures.&nbsp; On a 30 or above you get all 8.&nbsp; Those tiny creatures would be harder to get in the area normally, but if you're not prioritizing them you're likely to miss them.&quot;Player: &quot;Understood ... Trained Charisma?&nbsp; 23.&quot;DM: &quot;Nice.&nbsp; All four of the ground creatures are in.&nbsp; Roll a d8 for each of the tiny creatures.&nbsp; On a 1 they are included in the area.&quot;Player: &quot;... Nope.&nbsp; None of the flyers.&quot;I fully acknowledge I am not perfectly consistent on these types of things - I go with my gut in the moment.&nbsp; However, it has worked very well for me in the past for situations like this, for targeting an area spell in a place that can't be seen, etc...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 8800783, member: 2629"] I hope our future edition will assume the grid is used in the future to limit these types of uncertainties. I handle these issues by telling the player that placing the spell so precisely requires skill. It just makes sense to me that if you're trying to be really precise in placement, you need to account for a risk of failure to execute as intended. They'll have to make an arcana (int based or charisma based) / religion / nature check to place the spell. We'll quickly negotiate what types of risks they want to take ("I really want to get the leader, but am willing to risk missing the minions"). Then the result of their check will determine how many of their intended targets they get. Generally, DC 20 allows great 2D positioning and DC 25 gets you great 3D positioning. So if there are four medium targets in a square formation with four flying tiny creatures above them creating a cube of enemies, I'd handle various scenarios like this: Scenario 1: Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers." DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?" Player: "Nope. I just want as many as I can get." DM: "Roll a trained Charisma Roll." Player: "... 23." DM: "Pretty solid but you missed by 5. Roll a d8 for each creature. On a 1 through 6 you get a medium creatures. On a 1 through 4 you get a flying creatures." Player: " ... OK, I get these 2 mediums and these 2 flyers. " Scenario 2: Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers." DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?" Player: "I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration. Other than that, I think the flying ones are the priority." DM: "If you want to be sure to get the leader, the DC rises to 30 to get them all. However, no matter what you'll get the leader. The other creatures will be less likely to be caught in it, but the chances of getting the tiny flying creatures will be the same as getting the other medium creatures. Normally they'd be harder to get." Player: "Understood ... Trained Charisma? 23." DM: "Pretty solid but you missed by 7. Roll a die for each of the other 7 creatures. If it is odd you get them. If it is even you miss them." Player: " ... OK, I get 1 of the other mediums and these 3 flyers. " Scenario 3: Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers." DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?" Player: "I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration. I'm willing to risk missing those tiny flying creatures." DM: "Got it. We'll have you roll your check. You'll get the main spellcaster in the area automatically. On a 23 or above you definitely get all of the ground creatures. On a 30 or above you get all 8. Those tiny creatures would be harder to get in the area normally, but if you're not prioritizing them you're likely to miss them." Player: "Understood ... Trained Charisma? 23." DM: "Nice. All four of the ground creatures are in. Roll a d8 for each of the tiny creatures. On a 1 they are included in the area." Player: "... Nope. None of the flyers." I fully acknowledge I am not perfectly consistent on these types of things - I go with my gut in the moment. However, it has worked very well for me in the past for situations like this, for targeting an area spell in a place that can't be seen, etc... [/QUOTE]

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