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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MNblockhead" data-source="post: 9697810" data-attributes="member: 6796661">To me steps listed in the OP are misleading in terms of how complex the game mechanics are. The OP uses the example of combat in D&D, which presents a fairly simple 4-step process for combat. But it can be much more complex than that. Is it a ranged attack?  How far away are you shooting from? Is the target behind any level of cover? Does the attacker or do the targets have any conditions on them that have to be taken into account? Determining how much damage the attack delivers involves adding up various stats (usually precalculated on the character sheet but this still increases complexity). There are weapon properties to consider, feats, class abilities, and so forth. Also, the four steps the OP gives only part of the picture. There is also surprise, initiative, and things you can do other than attack, etc. Warhammer Fantasy Role Play 4th ed is another how a fairly simple combat routine can get very complex. If I ignore surprise, initial advantage, and initiative and just focus on making an melee attack:1. Attacker makes an attack with an appropriate skill2. Defender rolls to counter/doge the attack with an appropriate skill3. If attacker's success levels are greater than defenders, determine damage4. Determine hit location5. Reduce damage by defender's toughness bonus + armor value on the hit locationBut there are so many other rules that influence every step that the complexity is orders of magnitude more than what someone may assume looking at those five steps. At the end of this post is one example of flow cart that illustrates this complexity.The complexity is exacerbated by all the page flipping and table references required. Now I highly enjoy running WFRP4e, but I can see how it would be intimidating for someone new to TTRPGs or someone used to far more rules-light TTRPGs. Even D&D can be quite intimidating to many people. The amount of rules by themselves, however, can be misleading. Many of the rules only apply in specific circumstances. You only have to worry about specific weapon stats or special rules for a weapon if you have that weapon. Same with character abilities, spells, etc. If you have a streamlined core set of rules, you can add a lot of options and "complexity" without it becoming overwhelming.  Similarly, if the rules are well organized, specific rules for specific situations, needn't be onerous if they are easy to look up and quickly understand and apply. D&D does a good job with this overall. In my experience, magic is the most complex part of the game because one character can have many spells and each spell is kind of its own subsystem. It can be difficult for players to keep in memory all of their spells and how they work. In summary, I think a rules heavy game can be simple to play and a rules light game can still be confusing and frustrating. It ultimately comes down to what memory load is required for the game to run smoothly and how easy it is to look up and apply rules for specific situations. [ATTACH=full]410415[/ATTACH]</blockquote>

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