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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 2948499" data-attributes="member: 32164">I should make it clear that I no longer use alignment in my games, since I find the d20 Modern allegiance system makes for much more interesting and complex characters. There's a certain level of cliche-ism that naturally gets attached to a campaign with black and white alignment.YES.Most evil people don't think they're evil. They don't usually regard being evil as a good thing, so they justify their actions along some other grounds (preserving order, defending the state, I was provoked, blah, blah, blah). Monte Cook had a choice comment in The Book of Vile Deeds on what the standards would be for "good" and "evil" in a world where good and evil are concrete things, rather than just abstract concepts. I don't have it handy at the moment, but maybe someone else does. The basic point is that the standard has to be set VERY high.A quick list of things older societies have condoned or even encouraged from those in positions of "authority:"<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Slavery</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Torture</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Rape</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Mutilation for minor offenses</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Summary Execution for minor offenses</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Human Sacrifice</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Bloodsports</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Assassination</li> </ul>Evil is evil is evil. Often, throughout history, individuals or societies have had to choose the "lesser" of two evil actions. Occasionally, they chose wrong. Or they chose to do evil things to perpetuate the society in the belief that good would come from the spread of civilization. Or, they chose to do evil because morality is a grey area and they didn't really find it THAT evil. After all, if I'm in power, who are you to tell me I can't do whatever I want?The teeming masses in Rome enjoying Christians being thrown to lions? Or slaves dying for their amusement? Umm...yeah. It's definitely evil. And don't get me started on those actually RUNNING the arenas.Slavers buying and selling other human beings like cattle to make themselves rich? Evil.Queen Elizabeth having traitors executed slowly, painfully, and deliberately so that people would think twice before committing treason? Perhaps necessary to ensure the continued existence of her kingdom, certainly cruel (and she knew it), and, without a doubt, evil.People are forced to evil actions all the time in "the real world." They rarely think themselves evil. In D&D, killing when it's not necessary to prevent further violence is evil (yes, in society where prisons work, this would include the death penalty, but not self defense). Likewise, maiming people unnecessarily is evil. So, basically, a crueler world permits crueler actions. Many historical examples probably went too far, as it's VERY easy to do.Most people are usually self-interested, not self-sacrificing. However, many can be prompted to "good acts" by appealing to something they hold dear - family, country, organization, an individual, or, even a moral philosophy. The last is just as often a particular religion as it is an abstract ideal like "good."Which is why for most games, I prefer Allegiances to Alignment, as I said to start with.</blockquote>

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