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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Carnivorous_Bean" data-source="post: 4157699" data-attributes="member: 57974"><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> So does that make me some kind of unnatural mutant destined to a devastating implosion? Because I happen to like what I've seen of 4e a lot ........and I have no intention of running a campaign in the 'default world' or even using any of the 'new' races in my campaign setting (players can roll 'em if they want, just that they're a lone interplanar traveler) .... .... and don't have any intention of allowing Cleave to work in any way contrary to my perception of common sense, even though I prefer the new version of Cleave? For example, the bag of rats just leads to -- Round 1. Drop all weapons and shields, since you need both hands free, one to hold bag of rats, one to extract rat from bag.Round 2. Make dexterity check to avoid dropping wriggling bag of rats (if dropped, rats scatter and are wasted), and another dexterity check to pluck one out.Round 3. Must drop bag of rats, or hand it off to someone with a free hand, so that you can draw your weapon. If handing off, dexterity check required to avoid dropping bag. If bag is dropped accidently, dexterity check needed to avoid dropping in rat in hand as well, by reflex.Round 4. Must draw weapon -- requires 2 dexterity checks, one to avoid dropping weapon, one to avoid dropping squirming, thrashing, biting rat.Round 5. Make attack roll against rat. If attack is successful, cleave strikes additional target as normal. On a miss, roll to see if you cut yourself, and roll dexterity to avoid dropping the rat. Rat automatically dropped if you cut yourself -- and you're going to take full weapon damage, because you're swinging pretty hard at your own hand/arm if you've got enough momentum to hack into something else beside the rat.See? Anyone is welcome to try the bag of rats technique in my game. Have fun spending 5 rounds with all bonuses to AC other than armor gone, in order to possibly inflict 3 points of damage.   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /></blockquote>

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