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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4158966" data-attributes="member: 2067">Yeah, that's true enough. And a quick rummage of my memories doesn't turn up much I discovered in 3e that was juicy that wasn't based, in some way, on stuff from 1e or 2e. Which is part of my apprehension regarding 4e's flavor flavs. I guess the Bodak isn't a bad example of something that had good flavor from the earlier editions, but was ripped out and replaced with, IIRC, basically &quot;It kills because it likes to kill, and somtimes it kills with friends!&quot;Which, yeah, the friends are a good addition, but.....ew.At the same time, stuff like the Shadar Kai information that was tacked up to the WotC site recently isn't too shabby. But that's one of the hip new monsters that the designers and probably more than a few fans have rampant lust for, so they're easy. But, anyway, this is rampantly off-topic, so to contribute to the convo about rules thickness:A rule that is very complex that you use only some of the time, and can't reduce the complexity of, is a problem. 3e Grapple fell into this camp. It was complex, but the idea may have been &quot;Well, the only ones who do it are the specialized grapplers, and they'll enjoy the plethora of options.&quot; But then we have 1,001 tentacled/jowled/improved-grabbed horrors that happen to use those complex rules in situations where you don't really want the hassle, but they couldn't really simplify it at all.So there is a point in the middle of Celebrim's bookmarks where additional rules do more harm than good, especially if it's irreducable complexity.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 4158966, member: 2067"] Yeah, that's true enough. And a quick rummage of my memories doesn't turn up much I discovered in 3e that was juicy that wasn't based, in some way, on stuff from 1e or 2e. Which is part of my apprehension regarding 4e's flavor flavs. I guess the Bodak isn't a bad example of something that had good flavor from the earlier editions, but was ripped out and replaced with, IIRC, basically "It kills because it likes to kill, and somtimes it kills with friends!" Which, yeah, the friends are a good addition, but.....ew. At the same time, stuff like the Shadar Kai information that was tacked up to the WotC site recently isn't too shabby. But that's one of the hip new monsters that the designers and probably more than a few fans have rampant lust for, so they're easy. But, anyway, this is [I]rampantly[/I] off-topic, so to contribute to the convo about rules thickness: [B]A rule that is very complex that you use only some of the time, and can't reduce the complexity of, is a problem[/B]. 3e Grapple fell into this camp. It was complex, but the idea may have been "Well, the only ones who do it are the specialized grapplers, and they'll enjoy the plethora of options." But then we have 1,001 tentacled/jowled/improved-grabbed horrors that happen to use those complex rules in situations where you don't really want the hassle, but they couldn't really simplify it at all. So there is a point in the middle of Celebrim's bookmarks where additional rules do more harm than good, especially if it's irreducable complexity. [/QUOTE]

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