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Message: <blockquote data-quote="harpy" data-source="post: 5677237" data-attributes="member: 85243">I think a lot with the system as I tweak and houserule.  One thing that has stumped me for awhile is how much a spell is worth in the system.  Obviously, it varies due to a number of variables, but getting some general idea is something that I keep plugging away at. Some of the things I've been taking into account: The Action Economy  In 3.5 you had a dev formula given that basically a four combats ought to be expected in any given day, and further that each combat averages about five rounds.  So four combats times five rounds gets you to 20 rounds per day.  I don't buy that estimation, particularly for Pathfinder, but for simplicity I'll stick to 20 rounds a day for this discussion.  In terms of the action economy, you have 20 actions to perform each day.  A fighter can pick up a sword and can reasonably be expected (between charges and standard attacks) of being able to perform 20 attacks in a given day.  Spells however, barring cantrips, can only be done once per day.  Once a spell has been cast then it can't be replicated again, at least without other magical resources being used, but I want to ignore that because a fighter can perform attack actions the whole time, even unarmed strikes, without any additional help.  So spells at a base level are worth 1/20 of a standard attack.  You could say that an attack is worth 20 points and a spell is worth 1 point.  Spell Levels Spells are not equal to one another.  You have a wide range of effects, so varied that you're reduced to eyeballing things most of the time.  However they are grouped into spell levels, which at least gives a numerical scaling of their value that we can play with.  You could basically take the spell level as its point value, with cantrips being worth half a point.  Thus a first level spell is worth 1 point.  A ninth level spell is worth 9 points.  Cantrips, because they are at-will, can be performed every round, and thus they are worth 10 points (20*0.5). Caster Level Spells quite often also scale with caster level in a variety of ways.  This isn't always the case, which muddies the water, but in general you can expect some kind of scaling for effect and/or duration.  With 20 levels this means a 9th level spell is worth at least 153 points (9*17) and goes up to 180 points.  This all seems like it's going ok, but then you look at how you have to scale standard attacks.  They scale also, directly with increasing BAB, but in general it will be assumed that additional damage will also accrue in the system in various ways.  If you scale up a standard attack it has a value of 400 points (20*20).  Iterative Attacks  Going back to the action economy.  The fighter at 20th level is getting more actions in a round when performing a full-attack.  That has to be factored in also. The first attack is worth 400 (20*20), the second is worth 300 (15*20), the third is 200 (10*20), and the fourth is worth 100 (5*20), for a total of 1000 points for a full-attack at 20th level.     This is where the math starts to fall apart for me.  The problem is that you have a full-attack worth 1000 points, and a 9th level spell worth 180 points.  While it's true that the 9th level spell is fired off once per day, and the full-attack just keeps chugging along, but those values seem off since 9th level spells might, in one casting, solve the entire fight with save effects, or the duration of a spell is so long that the spell is in fact in effect through the whole combat or multiple combats.  Aside from tediously costing out every spell in the core book, I haven't been able to wrap my head around a baseline that “feels right” in regard to how spells, from 1st to 9th, have the potential of having a wider impact then they have on a per round basis.  Any thoughts are appreciated.</blockquote>

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