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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9002000" data-attributes="member: 82106">I have a PDF of the material that Dave sent to Gary at one point sitting on my hard drive. Its substantively most of what is in the 3 LBBs... No, it wasn't written down in a very fleshed out form, that is where Gary came in, was to make it comprehensible to other people. In fact this is where the two of them needed to HAVE rules, because they wanted to teach this game/technique to other people! I've also been playing RPGs since the early days, 1975, and I've played plenty of super rules-light games, as well as just making up stuff totally on the fly, no pre-established rules at all. So, the concerns and ideas of the FKR people are in no way foreign to me. Its not rocket science anyway! So we will simply have to totally disagree about what you or I or anyone else does or does not know or understand!Nor do I need to read a book about RPG history that I lived, lol.As far as Dave's rules, he DID make stuff up, like the cleric, it wasn't simply an unwritten rule. It might have been developed to meet a specific need, and what was initially written down was very likely nothing more than some very simple notes. It was still codified! Other people could now play that same type of character. I mean, this is a pretty special case in game design/play when you are making up the whole game from scratch in the process of playing. Nor is it my contention that the things Dave was doing were not a LOT like what he and others were doing previously (and continued to do) in Braunsteins and such. I don't contend that where they STARTED wasn't something a bit like the 'invisible rulebook' but that was not necessarily their intent! It was simply a part of the process that they used as DESIGNERS AND REFEREES at the same time! Its a little questionable to take all this early play, which was a LOT more provisional than even 1977 era play, and conclude from it that Dave or Gary didn't value codified rules. Also I think it is dubious to assume their opinions were simply static and didn't evolve as the activity they were undertaking also evolved. You CERTAINLY cannot maintain that Gary, the very least, didn't come to the conclusion that codified rules were needed, as the DMG flat out says it! Dave's opinion might be somewhat more open to question, but the fact that he fed his material to Gary to be "put into shape" tells us a lot!</blockquote>

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