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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9002456" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Same. Likewise, I've never seen anyone be so totally, dig-your-heels-in, unrelentingly obstinate as to admit ABSOLUTELY no discussion or cooperation (which may or may not mean compromise.) Not even the absolute dirt-worst player I've played with did that, and the dirt-worst player I've played with was ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE.Fully agreed. Contradictory or useless rules are not open-ended. They're simply bad rules, returning us to the state of nature. An open-ended game provides useful rules when rules are needed. And it turns out, games usually need rules! Even the FKR folks apparently admit that.I would say it really does matter, because alleging that it is a rule rather than an inherent aspect of &quot;let's play a game&quot; is part of the concern.The funny thing is, I've drawn pretty much exactly the same conclusions as you have, from these things. It's why I find so perplexing the DW community's extremely strident insistence on truly-absolutely-&quot;no-myth&quot;-AT-ALL, or at least &quot;the absolute bare minimum 'myth' and never ever any more than that.&quot; So strident that, when I spoke of things I considered to be that, several people point-blank told me I was either breaking with DW principles, or &quot;drifting&quot; into &quot;trad&quot; play rather than actually running DW proper.Like...the rules tell you to exploit your prep. They tell you it's okay, as the consequence of a bad roll, to alert a dangerous opponent that the players and characters couldn't know about yet. How is it possible to do these things if there is truly, absolutely, &quot;no-myth&quot; AT ALL, full stop, end of discussion, or even if it's &quot;absolute bare minimum 'myth' and never ever any more&quot;? Doesn't this require that there be some allowance for myth, just myth which only follows as a result of framed scenes, player choices, and established fiction? I just don't understand how there can be a demon, that the GM knows about and which is a threat to the party, which the party doesn't know is two floors down, and yet still this strident insistence on truly ZERO myth.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9002456, member: 6790260"] Same. Likewise, I've never seen anyone be so totally, dig-your-heels-in, unrelentingly obstinate as to admit ABSOLUTELY no discussion or cooperation (which may or may not mean [I]compromise[/I].) Not even the absolute dirt-worst player I've played with did that, and the dirt-worst player I've played with was ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Fully agreed. Contradictory or useless rules are not open-ended. They're simply bad rules, returning us to the state of nature. An open-ended game provides useful rules when rules are needed. And it turns out, games usually need rules! Even the FKR folks apparently admit that. I would say it really does matter, because alleging that it is a rule rather than an inherent aspect of "let's play a game" [I]is[/I] part of the concern. The funny thing is, I've drawn pretty much exactly the same conclusions as you have, from these things. It's why I find so perplexing the DW community's [I]extremely strident[/I] insistence on truly-absolutely-"no-myth"-AT-ALL, or at least "the absolute bare minimum 'myth' and never ever any more than that." So strident that, when I spoke of things I considered to be that, several people point-blank told me I was either breaking with DW principles, or "drifting" into "trad" play rather than actually running DW proper. Like...the rules tell you to exploit your prep. They tell you it's okay, as the consequence of a bad roll, to alert a dangerous opponent that the players and characters [I]couldn't[/I] know about yet. How is it possible to do these things if there is truly, absolutely, "no-myth" AT ALL, full stop, end of discussion, or even if it's "absolute bare minimum 'myth' and never ever any more"? Doesn't this require that there be [I]some[/I] allowance for myth, just myth which only follows as a result of framed scenes, player choices, and established fiction? I just don't understand how there can be a demon, that the GM knows about and which is a threat to the party, [I]which the party doesn't know is two floors down[/I], and yet still this strident insistence on truly ZERO myth. [/QUOTE]

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