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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9007342" data-attributes="member: 6785785">Right, that's all fine. I'm not talking about presenting a threat, and then letting the players decide how to deal with it, and letting the dice fall where they may. I'm talking about a situation where the threat isn't clear, and the consequence just happens. Can't that be done in any game? Tales From the Loop puts death for the PCs off the table because they're kids, and the game isn't really about risking death in the same way we're not really worried about the Goonies dying. But there's no reason you couldn't change the rule to say that kids can die. In fact, the sequel to TFtL is Things From the Flood, and in that game, the PCs can die. This seems to be something that most games can adjust to taste. Unavoidable traps are an example of what I'm talking about. In more classic type play where it's PCs delving a dungeon, traps are expected, and so searching for them is kind of a standard element. It's expected to be part of play. That the rules don't prevent the DM from doing unfair things doesn't make them fair. In such a case, I'd say that the DM is placing verisimilitude over game. He's saying that because he can justify it in the fiction of the game, it's more important than the experience of the player at the table. Which is his prerogative, of course. As you say, if everyone is playing with this expectation, then cool, go with it. But just about everyone will have a line somewhere.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 9007342, member: 6785785"] Right, that's all fine. I'm not talking about presenting a threat, and then letting the players decide how to deal with it, and letting the dice fall where they may. I'm talking about a situation where the threat isn't clear, and the consequence just happens. Can't that be done in any game? Tales From the Loop puts death for the PCs off the table because they're kids, and the game isn't really about risking death in the same way we're not really worried about the Goonies dying. But there's no reason you couldn't change the rule to say that kids can die. In fact, the sequel to TFtL is Things From the Flood, and in that game, the PCs can die. This seems to be something that most games can adjust to taste. Unavoidable traps are an example of what I'm talking about. In more classic type play where it's PCs delving a dungeon, traps are expected, and so searching for them is kind of a standard element. It's expected to be part of play. That the rules don't prevent the DM from doing unfair things doesn't make them fair. In such a case, I'd say that the DM is placing verisimilitude over game. He's saying that because he can justify it in the fiction of the game, it's more important than the experience of the player at the table. Which is his prerogative, of course. As you say, if everyone is playing with this expectation, then cool, go with it. But just about everyone will have a line somewhere. [/QUOTE]

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