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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 376617" data-attributes="member: 3146">I would expect commoners to need diplomacy for the same reason that adventurers do: to make friends and influence people. There will certainly be many commoners who don't take ranks in diplomacy, but there will also be commoners who have learned that getting a good price at the market requires skillful negotiating and that getting the town fathers to enforce their ordinances sometimes requires rhetoric. I think that diplomacy would be quite a common skill among commoners--it touches them where they live their lives.I would say the same thing for perform. The life of a commoner requires lots of work but when he's not working he will want to be able to do something. It's not as if commoners have televisions and most probably don't benefit from the presence of bards regularly. So, a lot will have a crossclass skill in perform (storytelling). That kind of thing is quite common in cultures that live primarily without the written word. If you want to have commoners who are like the hobbits in LotR, a fair number will probably have perform (dance) too. After all, what will villagers do on a fair day or a free day? Sing, dance, tell stories, etc.You might think that of people in real life too, but many people if not most do well enough to get by but don't excel. If two ranks or profession is enough to survive, you'll have a large group of people with two ranks of profession. Many people--especially young people--prioritize their friends and hobbies above what they actually do for a living. Most people here, for instance, would probably spend the money to fly to Gen Con before they'd spend the same amount of money to fly to a professional seminar. Similarly, the majority of students don't spend all their time studying--in fact many if not most actually allow their leisure activities to interfere with their studies. I think this would be true of D&D commoners as well.Well, first I'm not certain that the typical commoner can't expect to engage in combat at some point in his life. D&D takes place in pretty dangerous worlds. I would think alertness to be very helpful for a commoner whether it is used to notice a pickpocket before the pickpocket steals his meager market day money or to notice the orc tribe moving towards his farm. Endurance and run I can see being useful to represent the natural talent of certain individuals--I don't imagine those are feats they choose per se.And while I don't think the typical commoner has dodge, simple weapon proficiency, or armor proficiencies, I can see significant numbers of commoners having these proficiencies. (Dex 13+ is achievable on 5 point buy and most commoners have something more like 15 point buy stats. I don't think it's uncommon for commoners to have a 13 in one stat and an 8 or 9 in another instead of straight 10s and 11s). The world they live in is dangerous. There are orcs, bandits, wolves, and wars as well as the fist fights and bar fights that are even now common in young peoples' lives. In many lands, I doubt that people would travel to a neighboring village without a weapon. (Note that even in Roman times, a sword was considered a common travel accessory for defense against bandits, etc and the Roman world was much more civilized than most D&D settings). And feats like dodge could help people earn acclaim in the village's quarterstaff duels at the fair. As for militia, I think that's an excellent feat and most male commoners in areas where it's available would probably have it. In non Forgotten Realms games, I think it's the kind of feat that ought to be available to commoners in any kind of rough or frontier nation.As for bluff, I imagine that the average commoner would start lying the moment his mother asked who took the cookies or which of a group of siblings started a fight. Some people would learn to be honest and others would learn to lie well. I'm sure that many commoners would find such skill useful (even at cross-class+skill focus levels) when the Lord's men came around collecting taxes. ("Yep, that's all I brought in this year. Bad harvest. . . .")Diplomacy isn't necessarily about negotiating peace treaties either. If one poor Russian peasant wants to marry his daughter off to a rich butcher (like in Fiddler on the Roof), you can bet your bottom dollar he'll try to negotiate a good bride price. Similarly, you can expect that when the village elder wants to present the peoples' concerns to the king's magistrate, he'll want to be diplomatic about it too.As for musicians, nobody's saying they're very good. Two ranks however might make the commoner a few silver in the village tavern that only sees a real bard once every year or so. Two ranks and skill focus might be enough for him to spend a while travelling, singing for his supper until he finds a place to settle down. Or those two ranks could be used to be good at dancing and impress the other villagers at the fair and to tell entertaining stories to children at their bedtime.I guess the point I'm making is that there is no such thing as an average commoner. There are only many individual commoners who have some things in common (almost always two or more ranks in profession) but vary wildly in others. Some are honest craftsmen, some are skilled but lazy, some are womanizers, some are swindlers, some are smooth-talkers, some are leaders in the village militia, some mediate disputes between villagers, some are matchmakers, and some are dumb but diligent.What I'm maintaining though is that commoners can get by with two or three ranks of profession. When things weren't tight, and there was enough money to take them, you did take guitar lessons (maybe enough for one rank, maybe not). You didn't get sent off to business school. Once people have their necessities taken care of, they tend to get things that they consider luxuries. So, if two ranks is usually enough to provide for necessities, many people will take two ranks for necessities and spend the others on luxuries.He also stands out in a community where 50% of the people took skill focus profession, the village elder took skill focus (diplomacy and sense motive), Old Ned took skill focus (Animal Handling) ("Yeah, Ned can't grow cabbage to save his life but he's pretty good with the horses. If he'd just apply himself to farming a bit more, he could probably afford to buy his own horse instead of just helping out whenever mine needs shoeing"). The innkeeper's wife took skill focus: Heal ("Old Betty's the one to go to if your baby has the cholic"), the blacksmith's son is a layabout and doesn't apply himself to anything except that darn fiddle (skill focus: perform and one rank of craft blacksmith), Joseph is always smoothing out fights between the other boys (skill focus: diplomacy), little Bo-Peep manages to see the wolves coming before they get her sheep (alertness, skill focus:spot), Hans is the best cobbler for miles (max ranks craft: cobbler, skill focus Craft Cobbler) Rand is a pretty good shot with the bow (point blank shot, martial weapon:longbow, and two ranks of wilderness lore), and Farmer John always seems to come out ahead in any deal he makes (skill focus: diplomacy and bluff).Actually, if he's human, the commoner gets 12. It's still not enough to be good at everything but he can be OK at a lot of things. However, I don't think that it's necessary to assume that every commoner puts 4 ranks into thte relevant profession or craft skill. If you assume that a typical commoner puts three ranks in, you can simulate dedicated craftsmen (max ranks) and inherently skilled ones (skill focus) without increasing peoples' level or intelligence artificially. That way, the comments about Old Ned not paying enough attention to her crops or Betty's inability to sew actually have a game mechanical meaning. So does Hans's unusual dedication and skill.I think that's probably true. In a frontier situation, every commoner would probably have weapons and armor. In most situations though, it would probably be something more like a half-spear. Wise and dedicated people would be likely to do all the things you mentioned as well. However, most people are neither wise nor dedicated. Many if not most commoners would probably spend the money on alcohol and prostitutes, gifts for women who didn't care about them, fancy clothes, or a trip to the city.Again, I might agree with you on the average commoner but I don't think there is such a thing. There are only individual commoners, many of whom will be wise (but may not be particularly skilled) and many of whom will be foolish. Many of them will be dedicated and many of them will be lazy. Many will accept their lot in life but some will dream of more (oblivious to the fact that they lack the skills or attributes to really make it as a bard, warrior, knight, etc). So, while many commoners will be as you describe, I don't think that the odds are better than 50% that any particular commoner would have the skill setup that you describe. I don't think that more than 20% would combine the high profession skill with skill focus.</blockquote>

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