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How much should 5e aim at balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5985786" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And I'm saying that "Don't be a dick" in the context of a game is an almost meaningless request without indicating what counts as dick moves in the game.</p><p> </p><p>I'm a boardgamer and a tabletop wargamer as well as a roleplayer (or I was - I don't do much boardgaming or wargaming these days). And in both those hobbies, the biggest means of being a dick is to not be playing the game. Sitting down in the middle of a game of Diplomacy and singing Kum-by-yah is far far more of a dick move than the most intricate betrayals you can possibly pull off no matter how hard you screw your oppnents. On the other hand if you were to attempt Diplomacy-style screws in Settlers of Catan, that would be dick behaviour. Warmachine/Hordes on the tabletop front has the "Play like you've got a pair" philosophy front and center. Not trying as hard as you can over the tabletop and turtling are both ways of being a dick there.</p><p> </p><p>What is the spirit of D&D? It's a hacked tabletop wargame with a long history of tournament play. This isn't quite the balls-to-the-wall "Look after number 1 and climb over the bodies of the rest" of Diplomacy. But using the tools you have available to get ahead of the game is very much part of the step-on-up gamist play that to me characterises D&D as against e.g. Spirit of the Century, Fiasco, or Wushu. The object of D&D is to slay the dragon, not to ensure that the rogue gets to personally feel cool doing it. On the other hand the game itself should give plenty of opportunities for the rogue to be the person providing the party with an advantage against the world.</p><p> </p><p>And telling me that playing in anything like the manner Gygax intended is "Being a dick" is simply telling me that D&D is not fit for purpose. It's telling me that you think that D&D can support neither any sort of Step On Up play nor any sort of world simulation (a lot of people are dicks and this shouldn't break the gameworld). And with neither step on up nor simulation available that more or less just leaves high concept sim.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Many times. It was one of the opening salvos in the anti-4e edition war. And it's straining at gnats while swallowing camels - literally nothing in 4e is as dissasociated as hit points - and 4e hit points are less disassociated than in any previous edition.</p><p> </p><p>And as for the once/day spells being an in world concept, the big question is whether spell levels are known and categorised as such. If they are, that really restricts the worldbuilding and means you can play nothing other than a D&D world using D&D rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5985786, member: 87792"] And I'm saying that "Don't be a dick" in the context of a game is an almost meaningless request without indicating what counts as dick moves in the game. I'm a boardgamer and a tabletop wargamer as well as a roleplayer (or I was - I don't do much boardgaming or wargaming these days). And in both those hobbies, the biggest means of being a dick is to not be playing the game. Sitting down in the middle of a game of Diplomacy and singing Kum-by-yah is far far more of a dick move than the most intricate betrayals you can possibly pull off no matter how hard you screw your oppnents. On the other hand if you were to attempt Diplomacy-style screws in Settlers of Catan, that would be dick behaviour. Warmachine/Hordes on the tabletop front has the "Play like you've got a pair" philosophy front and center. Not trying as hard as you can over the tabletop and turtling are both ways of being a dick there. What is the spirit of D&D? It's a hacked tabletop wargame with a long history of tournament play. This isn't quite the balls-to-the-wall "Look after number 1 and climb over the bodies of the rest" of Diplomacy. But using the tools you have available to get ahead of the game is very much part of the step-on-up gamist play that to me characterises D&D as against e.g. Spirit of the Century, Fiasco, or Wushu. The object of D&D is to slay the dragon, not to ensure that the rogue gets to personally feel cool doing it. On the other hand the game itself should give plenty of opportunities for the rogue to be the person providing the party with an advantage against the world. And telling me that playing in anything like the manner Gygax intended is "Being a dick" is simply telling me that D&D is not fit for purpose. It's telling me that you think that D&D can support neither any sort of Step On Up play nor any sort of world simulation (a lot of people are dicks and this shouldn't break the gameworld). And with neither step on up nor simulation available that more or less just leaves high concept sim. Many times. It was one of the opening salvos in the anti-4e edition war. And it's straining at gnats while swallowing camels - literally nothing in 4e is as dissasociated as hit points - and 4e hit points are less disassociated than in any previous edition. And as for the once/day spells being an in world concept, the big question is whether spell levels are known and categorised as such. If they are, that really restricts the worldbuilding and means you can play nothing other than a D&D world using D&D rules. [/QUOTE]
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