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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9533795" data-attributes="member: 29398">There's a fairly big wide gap between &quot;playing to survive&quot; and &quot;selfish amoral prick&quot;.Please, please tell me your party had a watch rotation going while you rested.&nbsp; 'Cause if not, getting jumped without warning seems about par for the course...That's where the DM has to be given space and time to learn from these mistakes as the campaign carries on (maybe with a brand new cast of characters if a TPK was involved).If the DM doesn't learn and spends the next several months repeatedly wiping you all out then maybe it's time to pack it in and look for another game.&nbsp; Far more likely, though, is that after wiping you out once or twice the DM is going to swing too far the other way and throw nothing but puffballs at you for quite some time to come. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />The level-up piece is IMO unrelated to any of the rest of this, never mind that after only three or four combats it's far too soon to even think about bumping.As for why?&nbsp; Every DM is different, but it could be any or all of:--- mistake: misreading or misinterpreting how the CR system works--- mistake: trying to shoehorn a personal &quot;cool scene&quot; into the game before the PCs can handle it--- mistake: not realizing the party is deficient in one or more key areas (e.g. no healer, or no front-liner, etc.) EDIT to add: going into the field with a big hole in your lineup is also a major player-side mistake--- mistake: the DM has a specific &quot;win condition&quot; approach in mind that the players/PCs don't follow--- unintentional: the DM understands the CR system but the system itself lets him down by undervaluing a monster--- intentional: the DM is trying to set a gritty survival-first tone to the game--- intentional: the DM is making it clear that rolls won't be fudged and punches won't be pulledAnd that's just the DM side.&nbsp; The players also have a role to play (pun intended) in avoiding TPKs, in which the first and foremost element is to not face-charge everything you meet.&nbsp; Unfortunately, and sadly, the more recent editions seem to encourage players to do just this...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 9533795, member: 29398"] There's a fairly big wide gap between "playing to survive" and "selfish amoral prick". Please, [I]please[/I] tell me your party had a watch rotation going while you rested. 'Cause if not, getting jumped without warning seems about par for the course... That's where the DM has to be given space and time to learn from these mistakes as the campaign carries on (maybe with a brand new cast of characters if a TPK was involved). If the DM doesn't learn and spends the next several months repeatedly wiping you all out then maybe it's time to pack it in and look for another game. Far more likely, though, is that after wiping you out once or twice the DM is going to swing too far the other way and throw nothing but puffballs at you for quite some time to come. :) The level-up piece is IMO unrelated to any of the rest of this, never mind that after only three or four combats it's far too soon to even think about bumping. As for why? Every DM is different, but it could be any or all of: --- mistake: misreading or misinterpreting how the CR system works --- mistake: trying to shoehorn a personal "cool scene" into the game before the PCs can handle it --- mistake: not realizing the party is deficient in one or more key areas (e.g. no healer, or no front-liner, etc.) EDIT to add: going into the field with a big hole in your lineup is also a major player-side mistake --- mistake: the DM has a specific "win condition" approach in mind that the players/PCs don't follow --- unintentional: the DM understands the CR system but the system itself lets him down by undervaluing a monster --- intentional: the DM is trying to set a gritty survival-first tone to the game --- intentional: the DM is making it clear that rolls won't be fudged and punches won't be pulled And that's just the DM side. The players also have a role to play (pun intended) in avoiding TPKs, in which the first and foremost element is to not face-charge everything you meet. Unfortunately, and sadly, the more recent editions seem to encourage players to do just this... [/QUOTE]

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