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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Burnside" data-source="post: 8496885" data-attributes="member: 6910340">This one really jumped out at me because in 5 years of playing 5E, I have never had a character who started out with an 18 or better in any ability score. Using the standard array or point buy rules, it's literally impossible to have an ability score higher than 17 at level 1.Regarding the "battlemasters with a full page of maneuvers" thing...I mean, they have a full page to choose from at level 3. They only actually get to have three of them, though. Regarding "rogues getting sneak attack every round" the caveat is "potentially, if they can set up for it correctly."I feel like you're cherry picking certain things in your post and considering them in a vacuum. Lower level characters have more hit points and more access to healing than in 1E or 2E, true. However, monsters also do more damage and are more accurate. For me, one of the things that really jumps out at me about 5E is that in a reasonable game where the DM doesn't shower the players with magic items, it's quite difficult to get a high Armor Class - and even if you do, you're getting hit anyway. A fighter with plate mail and a shield has an AC of 20. A goblin has a +4 to hit. So even with the best non-magical armor in the game, a goblin is gonna hit you with a 16 or better on a D20. And do 1d6+2 damage, and then disengage as a bonus action and move out of melee or hide. Meanwhile, a 1E goblin is only hitting an 1E AC 0 fighter by rolling a natural 20. It's 4x less likely to successfully hit the fighter than the 5E goblin is, and if it does hit it's doing less damage.So, yes, 1st level 5E characters are stronger than 1st level 1E characters.  But 5E characters are not facing 1E goblins. They're facing 5E goblins. They're designed for a game where fights are shorter and involve way less missing on attacks.  And +1 plate mail? In most 5E campaigns, you're never finding it. Magic items are way rarer.Magical healing isn't designed to keep pace with damage in 5E - it's just designed to prevent death. So if you limit or eliminate short rest and long rest healing, the characters likely aren't going to be able to deal with the amount of damage they're taking. Monster design in 5E assumes short and long rest healing exists, and increases monster damage output accordingly.One other note about healing: one thing many players do not like about "old school" games is playing the cleric, because they are relegated to being healbots. Short rest and long rest healing is designed specifically to address that complaint, allowing clerics and other characters who CAN heal to have more fun and not reserve all their spell slots for healing. Take away short rest and long rest healing, and you force them right back into the healbot role.Having said all that, I don't think anybody thinks 5E is like 1E or 2E because it's "gritty". I think they think hearkens back to 1E and 2E in the sense that philosophically it puts the DM in the driver's seat more than 3E or 4E did, by empowering the DM and putting the emphasis back on rulings instead of rules, and not trying to create rules to cover every possible situation but instead being comfortable with DM fiat.</blockquote>

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