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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 712620" data-attributes="member: 78">Antimagic Field is personal range - if you can get a guy with an AMF within 10 ft of a powerful mage, then you could probably kill him in a number of ways.  Getting the guy there is a pretty nice trick.  I'm using essentially that same trick in an online battle game and it took all 15 levels of my levels and prestige class to pull it off.  And running around in an AMF means you don't have invisibility.Detect Magic is going to be very cheap and common among high level characters.  Most archmages are going to have it Permancied.  If Tome and Blood spells are available, then some will be using Arcane Sight - same thing, but gives all the info right away.  So low end enchantments or illusions would be easily detected.  Also, nothing prevents a group from doing all it's resting and planning from inside extradimesional spaces like Rope Trick, or for those with style, Mordenkanin's Magnificient Mansion.  It's hard to spy on people that aren't in the same world.Also, I'd consider a high level group that can't deal with enemies forcing tons of saves rather unsuccessful.  A number of monsters can do the same thing, possibly by themselves.  For example, a Beholder forces a number of saving throw based effects.  Characters that can't make saves routinely or possess immunities are going to have a tough time reaching 12th level, much less 18th.Finally, an open battlefield situation need never occur.  Sure, a couple of Fireballs doesn't mean that much in huge battle.  However, consider the effect of those few fireballs being blasted into marching soldiers, campsites, or supply wagons every single day as the army marches someplace.  But the army has a number of low level spellcasters with Hold Person and See invisibility you say?  First of all, the more powerful caster has a tremendous advantage on range.  Fireball outranges See Invis even for equal level casters, so the 12th level wizard can easily employ all but Close range spells on the low level wizards without them having enough range to detect them.  And, since the army casters can't see the character, they can't use targeted spells like Hold Person.  Also, any spellcasters will most probably be singled out and attacked first from long range.  You probably don't have enough spellcasters to cover all your units with enough redundant casters to prevent a first strike removing most of your magical backup.  Finally, protective spells like Spell Immunity, Mindblank, Freedom of Movement, Spell Turning, etc hinder low level casters more than high, because the weaker casters don't have the power to effectively dispel these effects.  So an adventuring group 12th level could easily be using Spell Immunity or Freedom of Movement, could attack from a high position (Fly, mass Fly) beyond the ranges of the army's spells, quickly neutralize any spellcasting enemies, and either move in for close quarters carnage or retreat.  The entire attack might take a minute, which will probably be too quick for other units to respond.  Because the characters will move faster than most riders, they may even be able to reposition and attack another unit within their spell durations.Also, the adventurers might heavily attack the supply chain for the army.  An army marches on its stomach.  Or something.  Fire ball supply wagons, etc.Finally, it doesn't really matter if a group of 12th level characters can take on an army and win.  The point is that a couple guys pose a significant threat to an army.  It'd be like Kuwait  or Liberia fielding a Carrier Battle Group.  While you can take down a carrier and it's support ships, they still pack a wallop.</blockquote>

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