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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zaruthustran" data-source="post: 1148950" data-attributes="member: 1457">LOL. Frank, you crack me up. I love your examples because someone is always getting shoved out a tower window. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Clark411, here's an SRD quote:"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide."If you run full bore at someone you suffer a -20 to your Hide check but you do get to attempt it--as long as you're not being observed and you have some form of cover or concealment.So, you bull rush charge while trying to hide. You roll your hide check, taking a -20, and get a 19. The guy you're charging rolls a 10 spot so he doesn't see you coming. His buddies roll a 13 and a 3 spot so they don't see you either. (They may or may not make their Listen rolls and you may or may not make your Move Silently rolls but that's not important right now).You're successfully hiding so you're effectively invisible to your target. You can't take AoOs on an invisible person so you just roll your bull rush Str check. Attacking reveals your position. The guy you shoved is out the window and thinking "oh no, not again" so he doesn't matter. But his two buddies see you clear as day. If you had a move left I suppose you could attempt to Hide again (at a -20 penalty) but you don't have a move left. So the two buddies attack you. Now it's your turn. You're being observed so you can't hide at all--even if you take -20. You could, however, take a double move or tumble move away, get behind a bunch of boxes, and drop to the ground as a free action. That'll give you full cover and remove you from sight. You can try to Hide again. Problem is the bad guys will have a good idea of where you are (they saw you roll behind those boxes). Armed with this information they can move in such a way to see around the cover, eliminating the conditions for your Hide and revealing you for their attacks. Time to scatter caltrops and make tracks. Er, without the actual leaving of tracks, of course.Just remember that Hide is not the same thing as non-magical Invisibility. For example: if you use your Hide skill and jump in a bare closet, and then someone looks in that closet, that someone sees you automatically--there's nowhere to hide*. You're observed.I think the thing you want is Hide In Plain Sight.One last comment: just because someone sees you doesn't mean that they see *you*. I'm thinking of the pier example. Sure, those pirates might have noticed a small shape moving towards them. But good use of the Disguise skill (coupled swith Spot penalties for distance and poor light) might lead them to believe you're a drunk, or a kid, or a drunk kid, or a rodent of unusual size. It's not like being Spotted = you jumping up and down with a big neon sign that says "HALFLING ROGUE PC--PAY ATTENTION TO ME! ATTACK ME!" Chances are, you'd be noticed but ignored. People (and pirates) are lazy.-z* Of course there's somewhere to hide! Put that Climb skill to good use and hide in the shadows in the corner of the ceiling! That bit of concealment might just be enough for a Small rogue. Or Hide behind the door as he opens it (full cover!).</blockquote>

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