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How Saving Throws broke in modern D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="AlexofBarbaria" data-source="post: 9555758" data-attributes="member: 7035226"><p>I've long felt that something broke with saving throws in the transition from 2e to 3e. I knew high level saves were nerfed, leading to Rocket Tag, but today I had a shower thought where I realized more clearly what happened.</p><p></p><p>In classic D&D, attack bonuses diverge with level for the different classes. E.g. the Fighter starts out with only a 0-1 point bonus in their attack rolls compared to Wizards, but this grows with level until by 20 the difference is 9-10 points.</p><p></p><p>When the 2e Saving Throw tables were converted to Save Bonuses in 3e, the same pattern of diverging progressions was followed. E.g. a 1st level Cleric starts with a 2 point bonus to Will saves over Fighters, which grows to a 6 point difference at 20 (and more in practice, as the Cleric pumps their Wisdom). This was a mistake.</p><p></p><p>Because Saving Throws are rolled by the <em>defender </em>rather than the attacker, Save Bonus progressions also need to flip and <em>converge </em>not diverge with level.</p><p></p><p>This is because as we approach zero expected damage (0% chance to hit or 100% chance to save), the proportional difference in expected damage grows for the same linear difference in success chance. (If that doesn't make sense, hang with me).</p><p></p><p>Anybody who's ever worked out when to Power Attack in 3e will be familiar with this basic idea. Power Attack gets worse the harder your opponent is to hit, because as your chance to hit shrinks, attack mods become worth more than damage mods.</p><p></p><p>The same relationship holds for saving throws: as we approach 100% chance to save, save bonuses become proportionally more valuable. Our Save bonus is the attacker's hit penalty.</p><p></p><p>To demonstrate, imagine a failed Saving Throw is worth 10 damage.</p><p></p><p>If we're high level and I have a 90% chance of making the save, I can expect only 1 point of damage on average from this attack. If you have a 70% chance, you can expect 3 damage. We have a difference of only 20%/+4 on a d20, but you take 3x damage on average!</p><p></p><p>But if we're low level and I have a 30% chance of saving, I can expect 7 damage. If you have 10% chance, you can expect 9 damage. We have the same 20%/+4 difference as before, but now you only take 9/7 = 1.29x more damage on average.</p><p></p><p>So, in contrast to Attack Bonuses, Save Bonuses should actually converge as characters level up (assuming we want the typical Save chance to increase with level; if we want to maintain a flat chance, class differences in Saves can stay constant with level).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AlexofBarbaria, post: 9555758, member: 7035226"] I've long felt that something broke with saving throws in the transition from 2e to 3e. I knew high level saves were nerfed, leading to Rocket Tag, but today I had a shower thought where I realized more clearly what happened. In classic D&D, attack bonuses diverge with level for the different classes. E.g. the Fighter starts out with only a 0-1 point bonus in their attack rolls compared to Wizards, but this grows with level until by 20 the difference is 9-10 points. When the 2e Saving Throw tables were converted to Save Bonuses in 3e, the same pattern of diverging progressions was followed. E.g. a 1st level Cleric starts with a 2 point bonus to Will saves over Fighters, which grows to a 6 point difference at 20 (and more in practice, as the Cleric pumps their Wisdom). This was a mistake. Because Saving Throws are rolled by the [I]defender [/I]rather than the attacker, Save Bonus progressions also need to flip and [I]converge [/I]not diverge with level. This is because as we approach zero expected damage (0% chance to hit or 100% chance to save), the proportional difference in expected damage grows for the same linear difference in success chance. (If that doesn't make sense, hang with me). Anybody who's ever worked out when to Power Attack in 3e will be familiar with this basic idea. Power Attack gets worse the harder your opponent is to hit, because as your chance to hit shrinks, attack mods become worth more than damage mods. The same relationship holds for saving throws: as we approach 100% chance to save, save bonuses become proportionally more valuable. Our Save bonus is the attacker's hit penalty. To demonstrate, imagine a failed Saving Throw is worth 10 damage. If we're high level and I have a 90% chance of making the save, I can expect only 1 point of damage on average from this attack. If you have a 70% chance, you can expect 3 damage. We have a difference of only 20%/+4 on a d20, but you take 3x damage on average! But if we're low level and I have a 30% chance of saving, I can expect 7 damage. If you have 10% chance, you can expect 9 damage. We have the same 20%/+4 difference as before, but now you only take 9/7 = 1.29x more damage on average. So, in contrast to Attack Bonuses, Save Bonuses should actually converge as characters level up (assuming we want the typical Save chance to increase with level; if we want to maintain a flat chance, class differences in Saves can stay constant with level). [/QUOTE]
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