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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ondath" data-source="post: 9167387" data-attributes="member: 7031770">So I've been delving back into 5E's fundamental math for a bit, and the summon spells (all different variations of it) have me stumped. When it comes to calculating a spell's power level, 5E's fundamental math is of some help. We know there is a certain ratio in each monster's hit points, attack bonuses, damage per round and even how special abilities like negative conditions could (with some accuracy) be translated into raw points of damage (Paul Hughes's <a href="https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7338" target="_blank">5e monster manual on a business card</a> is an excellent breakdown of this ratio, and he perfected the calculations in Level Up's Monstrous Menagerie IMO). We also know, thanks to DMG p. 283-284, the amount of "raw" damage a spell should do at each spell level. Of course, 5E's own spells don't follow this chart most of the time (see Fireball, buffed to 8d6 when it should have been 6d6 as a 3rd-level spell because "it is iconic"), but there is no reason to think that the chart itself is wrong. And I think it's easy to analyse the power level of most spells just by using these two resources most of the time.However, summon spells do not fit this mold at all. First of all, how do we measure the fact that you summon an entirely new creature to your side, with its own stack of Hit Points and a consistent damage per round? Should the summon's damage output over 3 turns be the equivalent of what a spell of same level should be? If so, none of the summon spells follow this pattern. Take Summon Fey, for instance. Most people seem to agree that the summon spells in TCE are better balanced compared to the PHB "Conjure X" spells. Summon Fey is a 3rd level spell. A 3rd level spell aimed at a single target (that is, whose damage doesn't repeat like an AoE spell) is supposed to deal 5d10 (or 27,5) points of damage in total. If the spell's total damage output should be 27,5 points of damage, perhaps we can spread that damage over 3 turns (the average length of a combat encounter), so the Fey Spirit should deal around 9 points of damage every turn. But in truth, a Fey Spirit summoned using a 3rd-level spell slot deals 13 (1d6 + 3 + 3 + 1d6) damage per turn! And this doesn't even factor in the bonus action extra ability that each kind of Fey Spirit has, which we could quantify in terms of points of damage if we wanted to. So the Fey Spirit seems to outpace the expected damage output of a 5th-level spell.And this little calculation doesn't even consider things like the Fey Spirit's ability to soak some enemy damage due to having its own HP pool (a fact which would make its damage output much more valuable than a simple spell that deals 39 points of damage over the course of combat), or the differences in balance between other kinds of summoning spells (Conjure X, Level Up's own Conjure X variants, the can of worms that is Animate Objects...). I think one reason summon spells have such a weird space in encounter balance is because they don't seem to have been balanced for their spell level at all. If we can perhaps tune their damage output (and find a more elegant solution for the "1 player controlling multiple summons" bottleneck), then these spells would be both enjoyable, both for players and for DMs.So, people familiar with 5E's math, how would you quantify summon spells within 5E's encounter math?</blockquote>

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