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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ondath" data-source="post: 9169260" data-attributes="member: 7031770">I mean, you're not wrong about 5E not having an encounter math... But I did backport Level Up's encounter math to 5E <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />I did consider the idea about counting summons as a new monster (essentially like temporary sidekicks), but that bothers me in a different way. If there are guides on how to account for balance when an encounter has waves (or where some creatures come in and out mid-encounter), that could be useful. But as [USER=996]@Tony Vargas[/USER] says, the main comparison for summon spells should be with other spells of equal spell level. Otherwise it feels a bit like apples and oranges. And none of the other spells need to be factored in like a combatant.You've summed up the debate I had in my mind while I typed the post! My main concern isn't actually with NPCs using summoning spells (which is related to [USER=6182]@Incenjucar[/USER]'s advice as well), but with players using those spells.More specifically, I started thinking when I considered Animate Objects (both its 5E and Level Up A5E version). If you animate Tiny objects, the 5E version deals way too much damage. The A5E version nerfed the spell for this reason, but I think they went too far in the other direction: Now the tiny swarm option is a joke for what is supposed to be a 5th-level spell. Then I tried to run some calculations to see how I could rebalance the spell, which led me to think about other summon spells in general, which then led to this thread...I know there really can't be a perfect mathematical equation for making sure all spells and encounters deal the perfect amount of damage. But surely I think to myself, surely somebody had some logic in their minds when they were assigning these numbers (summoned monster HP, AC, damage per round etc.) while writing these spells... It remains to be seen if this is indeed the case.Hm, so perhaps it makes more sense to calculate the summon spells' power level by assuming that the summon won't stay for the whole combat, but two turns? That actually makes sense. I think A5E Monstrous Menagerie says you should consider that any ongoing damage dealt by a monster is dealt for one turn and then ends. So the summon being able to stay for two rounds could be something similar.But that still leaves the other numbers a mystery. Why does A5E's <a href="https://a5e.tools/spell/conjure-elemental" target="_blank">Conjure Elemental</a> summon a creature with 60 HP? Are the HP and AC tied to the summoned monster's damage capabilities (as it would be the case if this was a proper monster designed with the CR guidelines)? I'll try and continue this idea to see if it leads somewhere!</blockquote>

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