Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5534515" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, this thread is a disaster.  Like so many other threads, we seem unable to answer anyone's question without continuing arguments from other threads.  It's almost like we'd rather tell someone about how they are doing it wrong than be helpful.Anyway, as for the topic:Interesting question.  Personally, I think the spot/hide system has a lot of flaws, but without going into the particular details of what I do about it, here's how I would think about the particular (fortunately fairly straight forward) case you bring up.At the beginning of the situation, I think we have pretty general agreement on the game state.  The PC has in the initial game state full cover (from the door).  The dretches are in the room, currently unware of the PC but aware of the door (this is important).  The room is dark, which would normally provide everyone in the room 100% concealment, but, the Dretches have darkvision which means at this distance the darkness provides no obstacle (and hense no cover or concealment).To sneak up to the dretches, the PC must do three things: 1) Open the door quietly so as to attract no notice, move silently check #1 opposed by all 6 Dretches listen,  2) Cross the room quietly so as to attract no notice, move silently check #2 opposed by all 6 Dretches listen, and 3) hide while moving so as not to be seen, hide check opposed by all 6 Dretches spot.Now, remember that I said the Dretches being aware of the door is important.  The door cannot hide, because it has no cover.  As soon as the PC opens the door, the Dretches will see the door opening.  Likewise, as soon as the PC opens the door and steps inside, because the PC then has no cover, the Dretches will see the PC.  However, there is something else going on here in my mind which is not covered by the rules and which we haven't yet discussed which is equally important and that is this: "Are any of the Dretches looking at the door?"The Dretches will only see the door open and the PC enter if they are looking at it.  They can't see what they aren't looking at.  So, we must ask a new question about the game state and that is, "What are the Dretches doing in the room?"I can imagine five basic game states:1) The Dretches are alert and looking at the door.2) The Dretches are not alert, but looking at the door.3) The Dretches are alert, but not looking at the door.4) The Dretches are neither looking at the door nor alert.5) The Dretches are asleep or otherwise incapacitated.I would potentially run each game state silently different. For this case, I think only in case #1 will I have the PC automatically fail owing to a lack of cover.  In each of the other four cases, either the Dretch is not eligible for a spot check or else player does have cover - provided by the Dretches themselves as they block each others clear view of the door.So for example, if the Dretches were previously bound to gaurd the door, they are awaiting the slightest quivering of the door which they will hardly fail to notice, much less someone stepping through it.  But if for example, the Dretches are sitting in a circle playing Liar's Dice on the floor with the knucklebones of their former victims, then they are busying watching each other (lest the other cheat) and arguing over the rules and the wagers and so a particularly clever PC might be able to sneak inside unnoticed.  In this later case, I'd rule the move silently checks normally.  If either fails, the Dretches that here the PC will turn in his direction - and since he lacks any real cover will spot him immediately.  That done, the PC must move so cleverly that he avoids being caught in the glance of the three Dretches that are looking in his direction but preoccupied by events near at hand and their neighbor.The distance here would be about 10', not enough for a penalty on the spot check.  I would apply a -5 penalty on the spot check because the observers are unalert and distracted.  The Dretches have +5 to spot, meaning they aren't exactly dull eyed creatures despite their lack of wit.   I quickly rolled a 5,9,15 for the three evil creatures, so to sneak into the room unseen our PC needs a 15on his hide check.  This is more than possible, but the PC better have considered one other important factor: light.The room is dark.  If the PC is carrying any sort of light, or there is any sort of light beyond the door, then it is impossible that the dretches will not notice the opening of the door and with it the attendent entrance of the PC.  The light which would draw their attention to the would be sneaky PC automatically fails its 'hide check' in this sort of situation.Incidently, being Invisible doesn't change this situation by all that much.  Why?  Because once again, the Dretches are aware of the door and even if invisible, if the PC is radiating light his location will be easy to note.  The act of opening the door itself reveals the presence of something (even if that something is invisible), and in a world where magic really exists its only natural and reasonable to assume magic forces are at work.  (Although, given the stupidity of the Dretches, I'd probably make an intelligence check to see if they could work this simple puzzle out on their own.)  Invisibility in this case really only acts like a very effective temporary boost to your hide skill.  So, I've given you two answers.  In one case, it is impossible without exceptional aid to sneak into the room.  In the other, it's something any mid-level thief ought to have a decent chance of accomplishing.  Both cases are in my opinion correct depending on the game state.  Since I tend to work out game state before I determine the fortune, this works for me.  If you work out game state after fortune, you'll have to come up with different rules and approaches.</blockquote>

Verification