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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5535147" data-attributes="member: 4937">A good question.If we describe the game state as &quot;The Guard is looking the other way.&quot;, then no hide roll is needed to adjudicate the game state.&nbsp;&nbsp; We've described the game state as 'The Guard can't see you'.&nbsp;&nbsp; Provided you don't draw attention to yourself by making noise or otherwise doing something the gaurd could detect, why worry about a hide check?&nbsp; Perhaps the guard is being successfully distracted or some other factor is insuring the guard doesn't turn around like for example the King is passing in that direction and protocol demands he remain facing that direction at attention and unmoving.&nbsp; Whatever.&nbsp; The point is that the required rolls are a function of the game state.&nbsp; If we alter the game state and say, &quot;the gaurd is mostly looking in one direction but occassionally glancing around&quot; then a hide roll opposed by the guards spot is required.&nbsp;&nbsp; We've described the game state as being random, and that's exactly what fortune mechanics exist to resolve.&nbsp; If the guard is distracted by something else so that he's increasingly unlikely to look in the PC's direction, then we apply some sort of penalty to his spot roll.&nbsp;&nbsp; Conversely, if the gaurd is mostly alert in the PC's direction then we apply a bonus.&nbsp;&nbsp; And if the guard has orders to watch a corridor and is dutifully doing so, then while the guard is watching it might not be possible to hide in the corridor.&nbsp;&nbsp; In that case, the sneaky PC might have to wait until the game state naturally evolves, and the guard becomes less alert before he can risk sneaking through the corridor.&nbsp; (Unless of course the PC has some extraordinary sneaking ability that lets him hide without cover.)&nbsp; When the game state does change, the PC with the higher hide skill will do better at it, whether this is interpreted as 'the PC chooses his moment better' or 'the PC is almost supernaturally invisible' isn't to me very relevant and I'll choose either interpretation as I feel suits the PC and the campaign.Absolutely.&nbsp; That requires something of a sneaky player to pull off, and even then every little bit of bluff, sense motive, hide and move silently that his character has will enhance his ability to pull off his goals.&nbsp;&nbsp; But really, when I say that I play 3e with a old school feel, I mean it.&nbsp;&nbsp; In 'old school D&amp;D', particularly the really old school before the Thief class existed, you were sneaky by making sneaky choices and not by throwing the dice.&nbsp; Even in 1e D&amp;D, your thief skills particularly at low levels are very unreliable so - if your good at playing the class - you learn to treat your thief skills like saving throws and to rely on them only when your choices as a player begin to go awry.&nbsp; I always prefer that player skill is tested along side character skill, both when I'm the DM and when I'm the player.&nbsp; Also one of the upsides of this methodology is that - particularly under the direction of a sneaky PC - the whole party finds it easier to be at least somewhat sneaky.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5535147, member: 4937"] A good question. If we describe the game state as "The Guard is looking the other way.", then no hide roll is needed to adjudicate the game state. We've described the game state as 'The Guard can't see you'. Provided you don't draw attention to yourself by making noise or otherwise doing something the gaurd could detect, why worry about a hide check? Perhaps the guard is being successfully distracted or some other factor is insuring the guard doesn't turn around like for example the King is passing in that direction and protocol demands he remain facing that direction at attention and unmoving. Whatever. The point is that the required rolls are a function of the game state. If we alter the game state and say, "the gaurd is mostly looking in one direction but occassionally glancing around" then a hide roll opposed by the guards spot is required. We've described the game state as being random, and that's exactly what fortune mechanics exist to resolve. If the guard is distracted by something else so that he's increasingly unlikely to look in the PC's direction, then we apply some sort of penalty to his spot roll. Conversely, if the gaurd is mostly alert in the PC's direction then we apply a bonus. And if the guard has orders to watch a corridor and is dutifully doing so, then while the guard is watching it might not be possible to hide in the corridor. In that case, the sneaky PC might have to wait until the game state naturally evolves, and the guard becomes less alert before he can risk sneaking through the corridor. (Unless of course the PC has some extraordinary sneaking ability that lets him hide without cover.) When the game state does change, the PC with the higher hide skill will do better at it, whether this is interpreted as 'the PC chooses his moment better' or 'the PC is almost supernaturally invisible' isn't to me very relevant and I'll choose either interpretation as I feel suits the PC and the campaign. Absolutely. That requires something of a sneaky player to pull off, and even then every little bit of bluff, sense motive, hide and move silently that his character has will enhance his ability to pull off his goals. But really, when I say that I play 3e with a old school feel, I mean it. In 'old school D&D', particularly the really old school before the Thief class existed, you were sneaky by making sneaky choices and not by throwing the dice. Even in 1e D&D, your thief skills particularly at low levels are very unreliable so - if your good at playing the class - you learn to treat your thief skills like saving throws and to rely on them only when your choices as a player begin to go awry. I always prefer that player skill is tested along side character skill, both when I'm the DM and when I'm the player. Also one of the upsides of this methodology is that - particularly under the direction of a sneaky PC - the whole party finds it easier to be at least somewhat sneaky. [/QUOTE]

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