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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7922320" data-attributes="member: 177">As I noted - if you introduce them to the idea that they are possibly/probably really committing serial mass murder, they will change their behavior.&nbsp; That is, unless the characters are already sociopaths, and don't care, in which case raising the point is moot, so why bother.For most players, this isn't like a small philosophical point they can quibble over without many hard feelings.&nbsp; It isn't like, &quot;If I rob from the rich, exactly how much do I have to give to the poor to still feel morally superior?&quot;&nbsp; It is, and I repeat, the question of SERIAL MASS MURDER. Well, in one sense, I don't actually care - I have run campaigns of various games both ways - it is a campaign style choice, basically.&nbsp; I just push back on changing the base expected morality in the game after characters are already made.&nbsp; &nbsp; They should have been aware of the general value of their moral stances before they committed to them.&nbsp; Bait-and-switch isn't fair.My current Ashen Stars game is all about the ethical questions - and the players were informed of this before they began, and their characters were created with this in mind.Asides:In the typical cosmology, the fire elemental is a spirit temporarily summoned from another plane.&nbsp; The PCs know they are not fundamentally capable of actually destroying it.&nbsp; In &quot;killing&quot; it, it is sent back to its home just a bit earlier to go on its way - the PCs can think of it as actually doing the poor thing bound against its will a favor.If a bunch of gnomes are out raiding peaceful villages, yeah, they get the same treatment as orcs.&nbsp; I don't think you're getting pushbacks on that.&nbsp; It is more the question of whether, when a tribe of orcs move in, you know that they're going to start raiding, and have been raiding previously, and whether you are morally justified in being proactive about it, andwhether any orc found with the bunch can be considered complicit.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7922320, member: 177"] As I noted - if you introduce them to the idea that they are possibly/probably really committing serial mass murder, they will change their behavior. That is, unless the characters are already sociopaths, and don't care, in which case raising the point is moot, so why bother. For most players, this isn't like a small philosophical point they can quibble over without many hard feelings. It isn't like, "If I rob from the rich, exactly how much do I have to give to the poor to still feel morally superior?" It is, and I repeat, the question of [I]SERIAL MASS MURDER[/I]. Well, in one sense, I don't actually care - I have run campaigns of various games both ways - it is a campaign style choice, basically. I just push back on [I]changing the base expected morality[/I] in the game after characters are already made. They should have been aware of the general value of their moral stances before they committed to them. Bait-and-switch isn't fair. My current Ashen Stars game is all about the ethical questions - and the players were informed of this before they began, and their characters were created with this in mind. Asides: In the typical cosmology, the fire elemental is a spirit temporarily summoned from another plane. The PCs know they are not fundamentally capable of actually destroying it. In "killing" it, it is sent back to its home just a bit earlier to go on its way - the PCs can think of it as actually doing the poor thing bound against its will a favor. If a bunch of gnomes are out raiding peaceful villages, yeah, they get the same treatment as orcs. I don't think you're getting pushbacks on that. It is more the question of whether, when a tribe of orcs move in, you know that they're going to start raiding, and have been raiding previously, and whether you are morally justified in being proactive about it, andwhether any orc found with the bunch can be considered complicit. [/QUOTE]

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