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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ObsidianCrane" data-source="post: 4700476" data-attributes="member: 54918">Thanks for doing it.. I have a fledgeling 4E DM to point at it and would have missed it otherwise.I read over your list and if you think those builds are a problem you are going to hate Bards.Seriously I suspect that the concerns with those classes are more rooted in the builds of them you have seen than anything else. 1) Shielding Swordmage - I've seen this used very effectively by virtue of making it easier for squishier strikers to get in and do their thing in melee. Though this can be a party mix issue.2) Infernal Pact Warlock - if they are the "sit back and hide" type of Warlock these are boring, for the DM. Though if you can catch them early they often have problems. If they are the "get in the enemies grill" style of Warlock these guys are a lot of fun to play and have in the group. In essence its the playstyle that makes or breaks these guys.3) Bow Rangers (heck non-Beastmaster Rangers) - the 'twin strike' grind is something I find very annoying as a DM. Its like "I'm going to play a boring character" and leads to just that - boredom on behalf of the player. They are out of danger (or will be moving there soon) and they twin strike every round (because the probablility of doing damage is so high). I very much recomend against new players using this Ranger build as a result. In the hands of an experienced and agressive player these guys are fine however.4) The Leaders - meh.. I pretty much disagree here. If the encounters are EL+1 or 2 the "I'm a healer" leaders get to be cool for their healing. 4 a) Laser Clerics - remember to use creatures that apply conditions that a save ends - they will be in range 5 (and thus attackable with some deft movement) right fast to hand out those saves to the other PCs. 4 b) Warlords -its not the type of Warlord so much as the choices they make in play. A Warlord should be encouraging people to use their action points and thus get the combat done faster, or keep the other PCs on their feet longer allowing more agression/risk taking from them. A warlord isn't a stay at home healer, they are an in the enemies base killin' their dudez healer. Make sure you highlight that to a potential Warlord player. Recomend Viper's Strike and Wolf Pack Tactics if they are new players and not familiar with your group. They can retrain to Shove, Commanders, or Furious at the next level, after they have learnt the tricks of the party and get an idea of when they can best be used.5) Charisma Paladin - wtf? Seriously if they want to play a Paladin for a healer they should play a smashy cleric, it gives all the smashy function of a paladin with better healing. Charisma Paladins are fine when they are played to be Defenders with a touch of Leader, not Leaders who Defend. It is worth noting though that 1st level Paladins can suffer if they don't have a +3 Prof weapon and an 18+ stat (hard lesson learnt). Players have to realise (and may need guidance) that the roles are more than just words on a page. If you want to be a healer - be a Leader. If you want to be in the front going "come on hit me" so your budies don't get hurt be a Defender (why yes even Shielding Swordmages do this). The scenario you describe is one of the player decisions, not the build itself.This is something that as DMs we need to be careful about judging, I have seen players do the strangest things that can make a class/build look ineffective; from just not read the relevant rules, to play against Role, to just forgetting about a feature they have. It behooves us in order to keep the game flowing and interesting to ensure we keep on top of these things and prod the players out of their complacency. Some players don't necassarily like that (fair enough), but some players need it so that they get more from the game.</blockquote>

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