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How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 7610769" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Given my love of 4e, if I ever did make such a thing, you can be sure the "tactical module" fiasco would not be repeated. I was among those openly incensed by the way WotC handled that (and most other 4e-related things during the playtest).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. They have nowhere near the level of support that combat encounters have. That's what I want. Skill Challenges are good for <em>generic</em> skill-related stuff, or as a template for off-the-cuff skill-based problem solving. They are nowhere near good enough to be even a <em>shadow</em> of the strategic depth of combat. I would like there to be <em>legitimate</em> social combat, and <em>legitimate</em> player-versus-environment challenges that only limitedly interact with the combat powers and features characters possess (e.g. environment encounters might cost healing surges).</p><p></p><p></p><p>That was the intent, yeah.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. Make the pill easier to swallow in every way you can, and people might just accept it. Certainly neither of us has more than a gut feeling on the matter, but I strongly think that the hump of "it's too different, <em>I won't even try it</em>," or worse, "it's Just Wrong and I don't have to play to know that," would never have happened if 4e went out of its way to embrace older-ed "feel" as 5e did.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That was a factor, to be sure, but you cannot change that part of 4e without it...becoming some other game. Any game worthy of the name "clone" or "rebuild" etc. of 4e <em>has</em> to refuse to make gods and mundanes. Since that part is 110% non-negotiable for pretty much every 4e fan I know, and 110% non-negotiable for the people who like their god-tier high-level casters, there's no point in even trying to touch that. Instead, address the things that <em>can</em> be fixed and hope it helps, since there's <em>definitionally</em> no hope in the other direction.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Missing the point. Having the term "powers" at all, <em>anywhere in the game</em>, was (apparently) HUGELY off-putting to a lot of people. It was a key reason why people referred to 4e as a supers game. People don't mind starting with relatively competent, durable characters--otherwise you'd never see higher-than-first-level starts. But a lot of people hear "power" and immediately think Superman and his suite of powers, and that immediately poisons the experience, regardless of anything else they may experience. That's an error that can be corrected. Whether it's <em>enough</em>, well, who can say? We can't see alternate history.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's...completely ridiculous. Who would have the patience to work through that? Just...why????</p><p></p><p></p><p>Whereas I find lighter rules almost always <em>infuriatingly</em> constraining. I never know what's possible, because "possible" is purely in the DM's head. I have to meticulously pick apart their brain, trying to understand how they think, what they like. It's basically learning a new system, except I have to do it <em>every time I join a new group.</em> With robust, extensible rules, I can relax. I can trust that "cold" means "cold." I can trust that "reliable" means "reliable." I don't have to worry about whether the dictionary in my head exactly matches the one in the DM's head.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 7610769, member: 6790260"] Given my love of 4e, if I ever did make such a thing, you can be sure the "tactical module" fiasco would not be repeated. I was among those openly incensed by the way WotC handled that (and most other 4e-related things during the playtest). I disagree. They have nowhere near the level of support that combat encounters have. That's what I want. Skill Challenges are good for [I]generic[/I] skill-related stuff, or as a template for off-the-cuff skill-based problem solving. They are nowhere near good enough to be even a [I]shadow[/I] of the strategic depth of combat. I would like there to be [I]legitimate[/I] social combat, and [I]legitimate[/I] player-versus-environment challenges that only limitedly interact with the combat powers and features characters possess (e.g. environment encounters might cost healing surges). That was the intent, yeah. I disagree. Make the pill easier to swallow in every way you can, and people might just accept it. Certainly neither of us has more than a gut feeling on the matter, but I strongly think that the hump of "it's too different, [I]I won't even try it[/I]," or worse, "it's Just Wrong and I don't have to play to know that," would never have happened if 4e went out of its way to embrace older-ed "feel" as 5e did. That was a factor, to be sure, but you cannot change that part of 4e without it...becoming some other game. Any game worthy of the name "clone" or "rebuild" etc. of 4e [I]has[/I] to refuse to make gods and mundanes. Since that part is 110% non-negotiable for pretty much every 4e fan I know, and 110% non-negotiable for the people who like their god-tier high-level casters, there's no point in even trying to touch that. Instead, address the things that [I]can[/I] be fixed and hope it helps, since there's [I]definitionally[/I] no hope in the other direction. Missing the point. Having the term "powers" at all, [I]anywhere in the game[/I], was (apparently) HUGELY off-putting to a lot of people. It was a key reason why people referred to 4e as a supers game. People don't mind starting with relatively competent, durable characters--otherwise you'd never see higher-than-first-level starts. But a lot of people hear "power" and immediately think Superman and his suite of powers, and that immediately poisons the experience, regardless of anything else they may experience. That's an error that can be corrected. Whether it's [I]enough[/I], well, who can say? We can't see alternate history. That's...completely ridiculous. Who would have the patience to work through that? Just...why???? Whereas I find lighter rules almost always [I]infuriatingly[/I] constraining. I never know what's possible, because "possible" is purely in the DM's head. I have to meticulously pick apart their brain, trying to understand how they think, what they like. It's basically learning a new system, except I have to do it [I]every time I join a new group.[/I] With robust, extensible rules, I can relax. I can trust that "cold" means "cold." I can trust that "reliable" means "reliable." I don't have to worry about whether the dictionary in my head exactly matches the one in the DM's head. [/QUOTE]
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