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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7611734" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Ironically, there were even rules for improvising actions! </p><p></p><p>I'd spin it just a tad and say that the difference wasn't 'rules for everything' - 1e AD&D was notorious, in it's day, for that, too. It was more functional, clear rules, accessible to the player, that covered enough of what the player might want to do, and enough to model the character in an enjoyable way. Not everything (no blacksmithing! argh!), just enough that you aren't constantly going off the reservation in search of effectiveness and/or realization of concept. </p><p>Back in the day, we did a /lot/ of that (uphill, in the snow, both ways - and we were thankful!)</p><p></p><p> It may have to do with what was translated, too. At-will /cantrips/, but not the corresponding martial dailies, for instance. </p><p></p><p>My conclusion, based on deep discussions with 4e's detractors, delving into what it would take to "fix" 4e, is that the problem wasn't 4e, timing, presentation, slow this or dissociative that - it was balance. Imbalance - favoring traditional/tier-1 casters - was the only acceptable fix. Fault could always be found with any solution that addressed the voiced complaints, but didn't also return that status quo.</p><p></p><p>5e has kept many of the things that were criticized, but still returned to the traditional class dynamics. (More or less, the Bard sure made out pretty well for itself.) But it's striking how the toys 4e gave casters: ease of casting in melee (via Close attacks), at-will spells, short-rest recharge spells, rituals that don't use up daily spells (at a wealth cost), increased hps, etc... Were all not only retained, but sometimes expanded or further enhanced: rituals no longer always cost wealth, the wizard kept his greater hps, casting in melee of any kind doesn't draw an attack (not just close), at-will spells scale more dramatically with level and you learn more of them. Conversely, the new toys given martial characters (and whole a martial class), were usually either cut completely, or greatly reduced in scope & effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7611734, member: 996"] Ironically, there were even rules for improvising actions! I'd spin it just a tad and say that the difference wasn't 'rules for everything' - 1e AD&D was notorious, in it's day, for that, too. It was more functional, clear rules, accessible to the player, that covered enough of what the player might want to do, and enough to model the character in an enjoyable way. Not everything (no blacksmithing! argh!), just enough that you aren't constantly going off the reservation in search of effectiveness and/or realization of concept. Back in the day, we did a /lot/ of that (uphill, in the snow, both ways - and we were thankful!) It may have to do with what was translated, too. At-will /cantrips/, but not the corresponding martial dailies, for instance. My conclusion, based on deep discussions with 4e's detractors, delving into what it would take to "fix" 4e, is that the problem wasn't 4e, timing, presentation, slow this or dissociative that - it was balance. Imbalance - favoring traditional/tier-1 casters - was the only acceptable fix. Fault could always be found with any solution that addressed the voiced complaints, but didn't also return that status quo. 5e has kept many of the things that were criticized, but still returned to the traditional class dynamics. (More or less, the Bard sure made out pretty well for itself.) But it's striking how the toys 4e gave casters: ease of casting in melee (via Close attacks), at-will spells, short-rest recharge spells, rituals that don't use up daily spells (at a wealth cost), increased hps, etc... Were all not only retained, but sometimes expanded or further enhanced: rituals no longer always cost wealth, the wizard kept his greater hps, casting in melee of any kind doesn't draw an attack (not just close), at-will spells scale more dramatically with level and you learn more of them. Conversely, the new toys given martial characters (and whole a martial class), were usually either cut completely, or greatly reduced in scope & effectiveness. [/QUOTE]
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