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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Garnfellow" data-source="post: 1227329" data-attributes="member: 1223">This is a pretty tough question with no easy answer -- in some ways it seems like we have to throw out either the BoVD stats or the 3.5 advancement lines.This very issue was also relevant in 3.0, but to a lesser degree. A 3.0 balor, for instance, had a base HD of 13 and could advance up to a maximum of 39 HD (note that this is also our upper limit for the BoVD arch-fiends.)  Even at this point it was pretty easy to conceive of an advanced balor with just 10 levels in a character class as being on par if not outright superior to the archfiends.In 3.5, as you note, the situation is even more problematic: the balor’s base HD was increased to 20, and the advancement line allows balors to increase to a full 60 HD! Even a standard  3.5 balor could give a BoVD archfiend trouble—just look at the balor’s new ability scores.As I wrote in an earlier post, I understand why the 3.5 designers wanted to give the core fiends a boost in power. But in some respects I think they went a little overboard. I’m not sure it makes much sense to allow most fiends to advance beyond twice their HD. Outsider levels, of course, bring a fighter’s BAB, good saves, a gajillion skill points, and increase the DCs on all their supernatural abilities. But while additional outsider levels increase existing capacities pretty well, they don’t add much in the way of new capabilities. I would guess that adding more than 20 additional levels of outsider would be pretty boring*. Levels in prestige or character classes will at least add some spice to the mix.So what does this mean for converting archfiends? Well, on one hand you can look at the 3.5 balor and say that all of the BoVD archfiends should get a commensurate power boost to keep them in line—we could reset their upper HD limit to 60 and add an additional +8 to all their ability scores. (Note that this would make their ability scores better than most gods as described in Deities and Demigods.)On the other hand, it appears that the celestial paragons in BoED were clearly designed with the BoVD rather than 3.5 core fiends in mind. This would suggest a much more modest power boost for our archfiends.My personal impulse would be to avoid or at least moderate further increases in power among the fiends, but that's really just an opinion.* I once, as an exercise in insanity, advanced a nightwalker all the way to its 3.0 limit of 63 HD, and then added 20 levels of wizard. Just to see how crazy it would look.Now granted, undead class levels are much less attractive than outsider class levels, but still -- the 42 extra undead levels really weren't worth it. Once your DCs and Skill bonuses are all above 40, who cares if they get any higher?And interestingly enough, in 3.5 the nightwalker's advancement is capped at only twice its base HD</blockquote>

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