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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steenan" data-source="post: 6474330" data-attributes="member: 23240">A few random thoughts on the topic:1. Make sure that the system you make does not go against what your players find fun. If they optimize because they like it, a system that prevents them from doing that will give them less fun. On the other hand, if they optimize because they feel it's necessary, it's better to remove the reasons of this necessity than to block optimization.Also, when you make a game, clearly describe what is the intended playstyle and make rules that support it, instead of making rules that prevent players from playing differently. A lot of games have no rules to restrict min-maxing, but their focus is so different that people who want to play them see no sense in optimizing.2. In general, system complexity encourages optimization. The more factors affect each activity, the easier it is to create an overpowered (or underpowered) character. On the other hand, if there are no inter-dependencies between mechanical pieces of a character, it's easier to just create the character one wants to play. In other words, the system doesn't have to be minimalist to reduce optimization, but it needs to be transparent.3. Why do your players optimize? The best approach is to ask them. But there are three factors that are very probably at work here:- If the game has combat in it, the combat is lethal and the combat may always be used as a fallback if another approach fails (failed at sneaking? fight the sentries! failed at negotiation? beat them and take what we want!) then there is a strong pressure towards giving combat efficiency the highest priority. If you want to change that, reduce the pressure. Make default result of failed combat less severe and default results of won combat less useful. Make other approaches better at achieving goals. Make escalating to combat less efficient.- Specialization is a natural way of differentiating characters. A group of all-round characters makes it harder to feel a PCs individuality than a group of specialists. In rules-light games, characters may be differentiated in fiction, but in a rules-heavy game it doesn't feel satisfactory to have the same mechanical tools as everybody else. That's why people specialize.- Active abilities are much better tools for characterization than passive ones. That's why most people prefer characters who have many of them. If you want to have less offense-focused characters, make defensive abilities as interesting and flavorful as offensive ones. Give options and choices in defense and make the defense give more than prevention of negative effects.- Many games treat combat as something that the whole party does together, while for other activities (eg. negotiation, knowledge, tracking etc.), one competent character is enough. This results in attributes not useful in combat becoming dump-stats and pushes the game towards simplifying and shortening non-combat activities (because only one player is active while the rest of players wait). Change this dynamics, either by simplifying combat (to a single roll?) or making other activities more complex and engaging to all players, and you solve the problem of optimizing for combat.4. When designing a system, envision a session played with your game. Note down what are the important activities taken by players. Clearly write in the rules what things that are not important. For things that are important, think about what the stakes are and make sure that rules reflect that. For example, if you want the players to care about pathfinding skills and managing resources during journey, make simple (so that people are not bored by it), but solid rules for it. If choices between finding shortcuts and minimizing risk of getting lost, or between discarding armor to take more food and risking hunger, exhaustion and death when food runs out are as meaningful as choices and risks in battle, people will think about it when making characters. If you give no rules for it, make the rules too complicated or give them no "teeth" (strong, mechanically enforced consequences), the whole thing will get handwaved and ignored.5. Neither classed nor classless system inherently promotes or prevents optimization. But a badly made classless system encourages players to only focus on a few important skills while ignoring the rest (solution: only have the important skills), while a badly made classed system encourages players to focus solely on what is useful for their class (solution: don't have universal character statistics/resources that are only useful for some classes).</blockquote>

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