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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 6474393" data-attributes="member: 58416">I do agree that classless gives freedom of choice.However, I don't see how that further enables min/maxing.  If the choices provided have both benefits and drawbacks, the choices are meaningful.  Likewise, if a system (or campaign if you want to look at it from the viewpoint of a DM actually running the game) doesn't make one method of problem solving always seem better, the choices are also meaningful.  Sure, a player can still specialize in one area, and their character will likely be phenomenal at that one area, but there are going to be a lot of other areas in which the character struggles.  Upthread, I believe it was mentioned that a party could optimize together; make characters which cover different areas.  That does work to an extent, but it's relying on a pretty heavy metagame gamble that the party will always be together; that all characters will be functioning during every problem faced.One of the main reasons I disagree with what is being said is quite simply because -in my experience- some of the games I've played which seem to encourage min/maxing the most have been games with classes -more specifically, D&D.  Though, that being said, I think a large reason why that has been my experience has been because the choices haven't always been meaningful when playing D&D; some choices are very obviously better than others.  Likewise, one method of conflict resolution (combat) tends to be supported more than others; in those cases, focusing on that one method is better than other choices.  It's one of the reasons why people harp on the D&D 3rd Edition Bard not being very good (even though I personally disagree.)  It's also one of the problems I had with D&D 4th Edition; even though I've come to be able to enjoy that edition of D&D, some options are simply objective worse than others for attempting to resolve a problem.  The easiest example is given in the first DMG talking about the party attempting a skill challenge to disable a trap during combat... why would I ever attempt that when I can use a few at-will attacks to destroy the trap and be done with it without any risk of making the situation worse?A better example might be to compare the various D20 versions of Star Wars to Edge of The Empire.  While both do have classes, Edge of The Empire offers far more freedom to pick up abilities outside of your class while also offering far more freedom to progress the way you'd like to inside of your class, yet I would hands down say it is far more balanced than the D20 SWs games which had a more rigid class structure.</blockquote>

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