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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Word" data-source="post: 705592" data-attributes="member: 4867">This is the point I'm getting at. Because the monster and its application is measured by a single value in the CR system (that is, the CR itself), it must necessarily be a broad value. A CR isn't an especially precise measurement, for all of the above reasons. Attempting to strictly (which I infer from "mathematically") formulate CRs seems to be tilting at windmills. The CRs aren't, IMO, going to end up more precise and it seems very likely that the system could end up with a built-in bias if you believe, as I do, that the CR system is inescapably subjective to one extent or another. It occurs to me now that, as 3rd party d20 publications continue to accumulate, the meaning of "average party of four PCs" becomes more and more diluted. What sort of assumptions are we making when we say "average party level?" Those assumptions are likely to biased, too. Which is fine, but should be acknowledged. Those biases would mean that the CR system does account for party make-up; whatever make-up, that is, which defines the average party.My feeling, then, is that a mathematically derived CR is still going to be biased, but is going to be presented as unbiased. The current CR clearly and fairly wears its bias like a badge. I think that's a good thing, myself. In regards to your corrections, the "DM" in the example above is whatever creator is crafting a monster for his/her game or product. You're right in that I should've been clearer. Likewise, when you say I should revise my "CR" references to "EL," I agree. What I'm trying to show there is that most of the difficulties with CR are solved with the CR/EL system by first discussing CRs alone and then addressing ELs as a solution. Sorry I was unclear. Also, I meant to mention this before ...All evidence to the contrary. With the years since 3E was released, a CR formula would have to be considered the best-kept secret in the business. There is that hit points to CR chart, though. Regardless, it's evidence that attempting to devise a formula could quite possibly meet with failure (since the original designers could not, or chose not, to devise a forumla).After all, what sort of monsters from which sources are you going to necessarily discount when you're crafting your formula? What criteria will you use to determine what monsters do or do not qualify for inclusion in your model? Won't a CR formula be handicapped if it makes certain creations or methods illegal in the rules? Won't it have to sacrifice freedom for the appearance of correct-ness? I'm genuinely curious what others think about this. I haven't yet decided that a CR formula can't work, either. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but right now this continues to be my opinion. I don't want to be snide, and I'll assume that wasn't your intent other, but I was hoping for a discussion of your theories and alternatives, rather than your assessment of my understanding. (I hate having to guess at someone's tone in these sorts of conversational text exchanges.)Since you didn't mention it, I'll assume Bad Axe is still Lombard. I used to work over there. I don't anymore. word,Will HindmarchAtlas Games</blockquote>

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