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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wulf Ratbane" data-source="post: 705698" data-attributes="member: 94">Hey Will, I wasn't being snide at all... at least not intentionally.I still am not sure what you mean when you say that the CR system is broad and imprecise. An ogre is CR2 (for example). That seems incredibly precise to me. CR2 is CR2. I am not sure how "2" is in any way "a broad value." The only wiggle room you have is in the DM's jugdement of what CR2 actually means. Usually that'll be interpreted using the EL system.You are correct that some monsters won't fit into any kind of mathematical CR formula. The same thing was true of the spells. But I don't think that the existence of exceptions invalidates the general usefulness of a mathematical guideline.Aside from the "dice of damage according to spell level" table in the DMG, there isn't a lot of "official" support behind the design framework of the spells, either. But it is still clearly there. It's not a secret, just not spelled out for anyone. If you line up any of Monte's BOEM products and look at the ways that he tweaks new spells, you can see that he operates by some fairly common design rules (aside from his annoying habit of making all his spells Transmutation, even when they clearly shouldn't be... but that's another matter...) Yet I was fairly successful in pulling out those design rules to create spell templates. No, they don't cover every spell, but there is a design framework there, and that's useful material worthy of publication (and sharing with others).There are other examples of things that are not explicitly spelled out by WOTC, but for which a mathematical formula exists. The XP chart has a mathematical formula, as do the BAB and save progressions. I suppose you just don't see them widely trumpeted because they are not particularly useful (though they are often mentioned on the d20 lists by folks attempting to end-run the OGL...)Back to CR-- I think the discussion you are looking for is ultimately going to have to come from mearls. I am not putting together a formula for CR, though the exercise seems like fun, and I think the end result has more applicability than you're willing to concede. Mike has already done some work in this regard, I'm happy to see what he comes up with-- checking out his work in The Monster's Handbook in the short term and waiting for his "grand unified theory" in the long term.Regarding your Lombard question-- sorry I missed it. Bad Axe is largely an "internet staff" in several locations; as the founder I had the luxury of listing Lombard as our primary location (and our state of incorporation).Wulf</blockquote>

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